I probably would have considered a similar route. The ELCA would not have been an option for me, as they have strayed from Lutheran teaching about the clergy, and human sexuality issues.
I can post photos of Lutheran churches that look more like a Baptist church with a big auditorium, moveable altar and chairs to that the chancel can be used for other purposes and praise bands instead of pipe organs. I don’t bother to depress all of us with what “relevancy” looks like.So to all Lutherans…
Anyway, last Thursday, I went to this Lutheran church for my daughter’s oral language competition. The church is quite large.
Anyway…as I went it, I was looking for signs what the affiliation was…LCMS, ELCA…when I saw in one poster…that they are LCMS.
I looked inside what they call the “Worship Center”…(which is where the awarding ceremonies were held)…which is very protestant mega church like (please take no offense here…). The worship center had 5 big screens behind the pulpit/pastor’s area, no crucifix. It had a giant empty cross on the left side and a head picture of Jesus crowned with thorns on the right. In the back part was the audio/video control center, seating was stadium like, no kneelers.
And on a corner near the main entrance, there was a coffee and cookie serving station, and a sign that said, water only in the worship center.
In the raised part dais/stage was a modern table (I am not sure what Lutherans call theirs, which is where the altar in a catholic church would be)…I looked for signs of the tabernacle, of the Real Presence, but could not find it. Behind the alter was a drum set, so I figured this is where the band plays.
I was kind of, surprised…as I was expecting something similar to the pictures of Lutheran churches that Evangel Catholic has shared or posted here. Anyway, no saint statues or pictures, no crucifix…just what one would find in a protestant church.
While waiting for the awarding ceremony, and walking around, I found this in a bulletin of some sort:
Conservative in Doctrine. Progressive in Practice.
Then I wondered, does these not contradict each other.
Any thoughts from Lutheran brothers here?
In every large American city, there are Lutheran parishes that are traditional and others that are “mega” church Protestant-looking. Unfortunately, the church growth movement means that some Lutherans worship like Baptists [that is not a put down on Baptists but rather an observation] and only confuses Lutherans.The LCMS is a house divided. Some pastors are VERY confessional and VERY conservative with their liturgy as well. Others are more progressive their their interpretation. That would probably be my only criticism of the synod. The Fort Wayne folks seem to be more conservative, I tend towards there writings.So to all Lutherans…
Anyway, last Thursday, I went to this Lutheran church for my daughter’s oral language competition. The church is quite large.
Anyway…as I went it, I was looking for signs what the affiliation was…LCMS, ELCA…when I saw in one poster…that they are LCMS.
I looked inside what they call the “Worship Center”…(which is where the awarding ceremonies were held)…which is very protestant mega church like (please take no offense here…
And on a corner near the main entrance, there was a coffee and cookie serving station, and a sign that said, water only in the worship center.
In the raised part dais/stage was a modern table (I am not sure what Lutherans call theirs, which is where the altar in a catholic church would be)…I looked for signs of the tabernacle, of the Real Presence, but could not find it. Behind the alter was a drum set, so I figured this is where the band plays.
I was kind of, surprised…as I was expecting something similar to the pictures of Lutheran churches that Evangel Catholic has shared or posted here. Anyway, no saint statues or pictures, no crucifix…just what one would find in a protestant church.
While waiting for the awarding ceremony, and walking around, I found this in a bulletin of some sort:
Conservative in Doctrine. Progressive in Practice.
Then I wondered, does these not contradict each other.
Any thoughts from Lutheran brothers here?
Thanks so much for responding and enlightening me
I agree about the LCMS. When I was a seminarian the St Louis sem was the most “catholic” of probably all Lutheran seminaries in the U.S. When Piepkorn, Damme, Tiejen and scores of catholic professors were forced out of the LCMS over historical Biblical criticism. Mass was celebrated daily just like in the Fort Wayne seminary but once these purges took place both seminaries restricted the Mass to once a week.
As offensive as Church Growth-style worship is to we Lutherans who practice our ancient liturgies (and understand the important purpose the Divine Service serves in teaching and worshiping God), it is at least possible for sound doctrine to be taught through these modern worship styles. I’ll take the LCMS’s sound doctrine and plethora of worship styles over the anti-Lutheran, anti-Christian heresies often taught in high-church ELCA congregations anyday: herchurch.org/.
I am sorry that you did not receive a correct understanding of the Office of Public Ministry in your Catechesis.
I really appreciate their work and the journal they publish.
Which part of my statement did you consider false, the first or the second? My “pope in his parish” I’m obviously not attempting a perfect corroletion between the pastor and the Papacy, just his practical authority in the parish.This is patently false, at least in the LCMS, and it used to be false in the ELCA (I don’t know now). Every Lutheran pastor is bound by his ordination to the confessions. No pastor is pope in his parish. Every pastor is subject to disciple by the synod and district if he strays from the doctrine of the Lutheran Church.
Ironically, the LCMS took a public relations pasting in the secular media when a pastor in Connecticut took part in a multi-religious prayer service after the school shooting. Ask him if he is his own pope in his own parish.
Jon
The Circuit Counselor, District President, and Synod President might be analogous to the Bishop, Archbishop, and Pope, but nothing more. Unlike true bishops, the Synod cannot excommunicate, legislate canon law, or teach with binding authority. In the LC-MS each congregational is functionally independent, with the Synod acting as a unifying organization for the sake of cooperation and to provide services that can’t be reasonably performed by a single parish. To make my statement about “pope in his own parish” in the context of this thread more clear, I mean that the pastor can change the worship of his parish as he sees fit, which I have seen occur again and again.I am sorry that you did not receive a correct understanding of the Office of Public Ministry in your Catechesis.
To use Roman terminology, the parish pastor serves essentially as “bishop” to his congregation, and is responsible to not just his congregation, but also his ecclesiastical supervisors - his Circuit Counselor (i.e. bishop), District President (i.e. archbishop), and the Synod President (i.e. primate). The duties associated with these titles do not transfer precisely from Rome to Wittenberg, but this may be helpful to those who mistakenly think the LCMS does not have a functional governance.
To suggest that a local pastor functions as a local “pope,” capable of creating dogma or interpreting Holy Scripture is absurd. Lutheran pastors are bound to the Formula of Concord, as Jon noted.
The irony is that the most catholic are also the most liberal in Lutheranism, for the most part. Episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession is the norm for most Lutherans worldwide as well as the traditional Mass. The LCMS struggles with influences that work against restoring these catholic customs while isolated themselves from the larger Lutheran communion.
No LCMS pastor can excommunicate. Only the church, in general, can do so:
This is an inverted understanding of how the LCMS understands itself. We are one, indivisible body in Christ that has local manifestations. The church simply serves its sinners better via these local, pastoral churches than by a canon law-driven structure. As an Orthodox Christian, you might find it analogous to the various national churches that exist.
Still not the most clear statement. When you compare someone to the pope, it implies that they claim the same “infalliable” ability to interpret doctrine that the pope claims. No LCMS pastor can do such a thing; while he may have some degree of pastoral discretion in matters considered adiaphoron, he is bound to Scripture and the Confessions on all matters of faith and morals. The LCMS pastor can change the worship of his parish, in consultation with the local parish (usually the elders) and at its request, but worship must always retain the basics of the Divine Service. A Roman Catholic bishop can do the same, to a different degree, in selecting which hymns to use, who may serve as cantor, etc.
Me too.
No need for me to pile on, d. Don has given you a pretty good description of public ministry and LCMS polity in this area.
thanks for the additional inf. another question, you state “properly disposed of”. How is that done?
Jon
