Lutheran critique of Eastern Orthodoxy and Original Sin-Redemption

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I wanted to keep this in a separate thread from the other. I did not want any resultant discussion (if there is any šŸ™‚ mixing on the two topics, since, obviously, they are very different.

In the traditional view of the Churches of the Reformation, one major area of disagreement is soteriology. Orthodoxy, while using different language, is similar to Roman Catholicism. Both see justification, not in legal or forensic terms, but in transformational at a moral level. However, one area where Rome and Protestantism have traditionally had wide agreement on, is the doctrine of original sin. Both Rome and Protestantism understand that Adam, created holy and righteous, lost that righteousness upon his disobedience. As a result, his spiritual death, has been imputed to his descendants in the form of a sinful nature. Unlike Orthodoxy, the West understands that the punishment of death is the result of the guilt of sin.

In contrast, Protestantism would see Orthodoxy has having an inadequate view of sin. This becomes apparent in its view of original sin, excluding inherited guilt from the picture and embracing a synergistic view of regeneration as well as a medicinal view of justifying grace.
To do justice to the Orthodox view, it must be recalled that the reigning paradigm is relational and transformative. Humanity is on a pilgrimage – from innocence to mortality to immortality. It is a movement from image to likeness, from natural goodness to moral goodness. Father Palachovsky explains, ā€œWe have been made in His image through Creation, but we must become like Him by ourselves, through our own free will. To be the image of God belongs to us by our primordial destination, but to become like God depends upon our will. Human nature has not remained intact, as some theologians teach, but has become corrupt. Nevertheless, this corruption does not go so far as the Protestant theologians teach.ā€
We must appreciate the categories of Orthodox thought on this issue, since the context of early patristic development was Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and their kindred heresies in which creation and redemption were set in opposition. Matter was inherently evil because it was temporal rather than eternal, physical rather than spiritual, and so forth. It would only make sense that the church fathers would confront this pagan determinism and dualism with an emphasis on human responsibility and freedom, as well as on the goodness of the Creator God (and therefore everything He creates). Nature is not inherently sinful, and on this point, the Churches of the Reformation agree.

According to the Orthodox, the sin of Adam and Eve affected only themselves. Their descendants inherited no sin or guilt because of the fall of the first parents. The fall resulted in their descendants becoming mortal and subject to physical death. This mortality resulted in an increased tendency to sin, but only because humanity was subject to physical needs. Humanity’s mortality makes people prone to sin. The sin of Adam and Eve created a barrier of mortality between God and humanity. Only God could do away with this barrier. God removed this obstacle through the incarnation of Christ.

In the following comments, hopefully, the problems with this view can be explored, as well as its relationship to the Incarnation and the Atonement.
 
A correction, it is not that the original sin only affected Adam and Eve, it is that they are the only ones who bare guilt related to it. The Fall affected everyone.

edit: Regarding atonement, the West has a paradigm of Faith vs. Works, this is foreign to Orthodoxy. Faith and Works go together, If you have faith it will show through your works.
 
A correction, it is not that the original sin only affected Adam and Eve, it is that they are the only ones who bare guilt related to it. The Fall affected everyone.

edit: Regarding atonement, the West has a paradigm of Faith vs. Works, this is foreign to Orthodoxy. Faith and Works go together, If you have faith it will show through your works.
Thanks for the correction, Nine! I’ll make sure to note it šŸ™‚
 
Faith Vs Works is foreign to me also and i think foreign to the Catholic Church.

I think some non Catholics of the west see devotions and sacraments as works and believe that the Catholic Church places these ā€˜works’ above faith as some sort of ā€˜free pass’ into Heaven.
 
Faith Vs Works is foreign to me also and i think foreign to the Catholic Church.

I think some non Catholics of the west see devotions and sacraments as works and believe that the Catholic Church places these ā€˜works’ above faith as some sort of ā€˜free pass’ into Heaven.
Not at all, works and faith are seen as two related, but separate, things in Catholicism. This is why Catholics have the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences which you do not find in Orthodoxy.

I suspect the Orthodox would say that this mistake is what lead to the Protestant mistake of canning works altogether, which was a misguided attempt to correct the Catholic error.
 
Your suspician is correct as I have heard many Orthodox makes such an asertion.
Not at all, works and faith are seen as two related, but separate, things in Catholicism. This is why Catholics have the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences which you do not find in Orthodoxy.

I suspect the Orthodox would say that this mistake is what lead to the Protestant mistake of canning works altogether, which was a misguided attempt to correct the Catholic error.
 
Scripture not only states that both are required, but that both will be present together if they are present at all. It is not that your works get you into heaven, but that your works show your faith.

That is pretty much the Orthodox take on the issue in a nutshell. Obviously you can go into far greater depth, and probably should if the topic is of interest.
 
Triune can correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like he, as the OP, was introducing the discussion topic as this: if Original Sin only gave us death as a consequence and not the inherited concupiscent sinful nature of our first parents, then the Atonement doesn’t make total sense? It seems as if the Orthodox view of the atonment is that Jesus died so we don’t die making it all about death and not about atoning for sins in our place? So the atonement is directed solely toward death and life instead of sins atoned for leading to giving us life? I hope that made sense. I don’t want to put words in Triune’s mouth so I hope he’ll correct me if I mistated anything…

I think the discussion is more to be aimed toward Original Sin and the Atonement. What was the Atonement really for instead of faith vs. works, a topic on CAF that is truly a horse beaten to death and then dragged through the town square only to be thrown off a cliff!
 
Triune can correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like he, as the OP, was introducing the discussion topic as this: if Original Sin only gave us death as a consequence and not the inherited concupiscent sinful nature of our first parents, then the Atonement doesn’t make total sense? It seems as if the Orthodox view of the atonment is that Jesus died so we don’t die making it all about death and not about atoning for sins in our place? So the atonement is directed solely toward death and life instead of sins atoned for leading to giving us life? I hope that made sense. I don’t want to put words in Triune’s mouth so I hope he’ll correct me if I mistated anything…

I think the discussion is more to be aimed toward Original Sin and the Atonement. What was the Atonement really for instead of faith vs. works, a topic on CAF that is truly a horse beaten to death and then dragged through the town square only to be thrown off a cliff!
This sounds on the right track to me. Since death is the result of the first sin and is what separates us from God and causes concupiscence, defeating death would seem to be the logical work of Christ for Orthodoxy.

This does seem to raise the question - what has happened about the balancing of the scales of justice for the sins which have been committed? Does death do that already?

Which makes me ask - when one goes to Confession in Orthodoxy, is one given penance?
 
This sounds on the right track to me. Since death is the result of the first sin and is what separates us from God and causes concupiscence, defeating death would seem to be the logical work of Christ for Orthodoxy.

This does seem to raise the question - what has happened about the balancing of the scales of justice for the sins which have been committed? Does death do that already?

Which makes me ask - when one goes to Confession in Orthodoxy, is one given penance?
Orthodox theologians should attempt to understand the surprise of those who have seen in both Old and New Testaments a recurring emphasis on the cross of Christ as ā€œpayment,ā€ ā€œpropitiation,ā€ ā€œsacrifice,ā€ ā€œsatisfaction,ā€ and the like. Acknowledging the important theme of Christus Victor over death, Satan, evil and the demonic as the consequence of His satisfaction of the Father’s plan to propitiate God’s wrath against sin. Even in one of the clearest Christus Victor passages, Paul makes this very connection: And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (Col. 2:13-15).

That last statement depends on that which precedes it. The power of Satan over us was chiefly God’s own law, a recurring Pauline theme, but one this was satisfied by the substitution of Christ for sinners, the powers and authorities were disarmed. The public spectacle, despite Orthodoxy’s unwillingness to perceive the legal aspects of both original sin and the atonement, is a courtroom scene in which God judges His Son in our place.

Orthodoxy, however, has Christ in His atonement dealing with the effects of our guilt - death - and not the cause of it - our violation of God’s law. Without dealing with the root cause of why humanity suffers death in the first place, then it is impossible for death to be defeated. If our legal obligation to God’s justice remains, then death will always remain.
 
Triune can correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like he, as the OP, was introducing the discussion topic as this: if Original Sin only gave us death as a consequence and not the inherited concupiscent sinful nature of our first parents, then the Atonement doesn’t make total sense? It seems as if the Orthodox view of the atonment is that Jesus died so we don’t die making it all about death and not about atoning for sins in our place? So the atonement is directed solely toward death and life instead of sins atoned for leading to giving us life? I hope that made sense. I don’t want to put words in Triune’s mouth so I hope he’ll correct me if I mistated anything…

I think the discussion is more to be aimed toward Original Sin and the Atonement. What was the Atonement really for instead of faith vs. works, a topic on CAF that is truly a horse beaten to death and then dragged through the town square only to be thrown off a cliff!
It is through the Ancestral Sin that sin and death entered the world, one of the consequences, in addition to death, was a sinful nature, but again that nature is not an inherited guilt.

I’m going to decline to get any more in depth than that, although you bring up some very good points that should be addressed, I’m in the middle of a move right now (all I have unpacked and usable is my laptop), and my brain is a bit fried right now so I don’t want to give any misleading answers on these very serious subjects. I’m sure some other Orthodox posters can answer them better than I can.
 
It is through the Ancestral Sin that sin and death entered the world, one of the consequences, in addition to death, was a sinful nature, but again that nature is not an inherited guilt.

I’m going to decline to get any more in depth than that, although you bring up some very good points that should be addressed, I’m in the middle of a move right now (all I have unpacked and usable is my laptop), and my brain is a bit fried right now so I don’t want to give any misleading answers on these very serious subjects. I’m sure some other Orthodox posters can answer them better than I can.
Good luck with the move! I’ll pray you don’t get too aggravated. I hate moving.
 
Good luck with the move! I’ll pray you don’t get too aggravated. I hate moving.
Thank you, unfortunately it will be a long process, partially because I’m going to another city, and partially because I won’t have my own place for the first month or two. But I guess that also means I get a month long reprieve between the packing and unpacking phase of the move. šŸ™‚

Always look for the silver lining.

Anyway, I don’t mean to hijack your thread.
 
Thank you, unfortunately it will be a long process, partially because I’m going to another city, and partially because I won’t have my own place for the first month or two. But I guess that also means I get a month long reprieve between the packing and unpacking phase of the move. šŸ™‚

Always look for the silver lining.

Anyway, I don’t mean to hijack your thread.
You didn’t! Since it’s about Eastern Orthodoxy, then anyone who is EO who posts isn’t hijacking it šŸ™‚

(Though posting a recipe for dolmathes may be a bit much)
 
This is precisely my concern about Orthodoxy; the root cause isn’t addressed, just the end result, as you say. Excellent analysis. I agree that the NT, especially in the Pauline portions, is loaded with legal lingo and the key word that always sticks out for me is the word ā€œcredited.ā€ We are ā€œcreditedā€ as righteous couldn’t be more legal IMO. The substitutionary language is definitely there.

I’d like to hear the Orthodox respond to this question, especially guys like Hesychios, Micky, SSTeacher and the gang, all very learned and insightful Orthodox brothers in Christ.

I’m learning a lot from this thread; thanks, Triune.
Orthodoxy, however, has Christ in His atonement dealing with the effects of our guilt - death - and not the cause of it - our violation of God’s law. Without dealing with the root cause of why humanity suffers death in the first place, then it is impossible for death to be defeated. If our legal obligation to God’s justice remains, then death will always remain.
 
I hate moving so much (my wife even more!) that I think you could move Snoop Doggy Dog, Flavor Flave, Vanilla Ice, and the entire band from Slayer next door to me and I’d probably stay put! LOL…we have a two-story house, nuff said LOL 😃
Good luck with the move! I’ll pray you don’t get too aggravated. I hate moving.
 
Scripture not only states that both are required, but that both will be present together if they are present at all. It is not that your works get you into heaven, but that your works show your faith.
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As far as i am concerned, this is also the Catholic viewpoint.
 
I hope we can get some more posts on this thread from Orthodox Christians. It’s a great thread but has not gotten much play today, sadly.
 
I hope we can get some more posts on this thread from Orthodox Christians. It’s a great thread but has not gotten much play today, sadly.
I have a lot to say on this subject, and I would like to share my perspective, but I have been very busy of late (unfortunately, my internet access is also quite limited at present).

God bless,
 
I have a lot to say on this subject, and I would like to share my perspective, but I have been very busy of late (unfortunately, my internet access is also quite limited at present).

God bless,
I look forward to it, Hesychios. I posted two threads discussing our disagreements with Orthodoxy. Haven’t gotten enough of an EO response!
 
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