Lutheran Doctrines

[Matariel]

A bad thing to say? IT IS TRUTH my friend. Lutheran’s as well as the other 30,000 denominations in this world are nothing more than man made. Luther started the Reformation, changed the doctrines of the one true bible, protested the Catholic church and was a heretic. And you say this is a bad thing to say?? It is an historical fact of this man. Lutheran’s are NOT in full communion with the Catholic church, therefore are NOT my brothers and sisters in Christ. Brothers and sisters in Christ are the Catholic faith where these people follow Christ and his Word from the beginning of time. Nothing changed, nothing protested.
It is what it is.

But Vatican II says they are separated brethren and have a valid baptism (which makes them mystically a part of the Church, even if it’s imperfect). I disagree overall with Luther, but you have to remember there were idiots and numskulls on the Catholic side (Tetzel :nope.

I personally thing the “Reformation” was actually the “Division” and was one of the worst calamities to befall the Church, but we must work to draw them back, right? That requires at least treating them with respect.

 

[Matariel]

Here’s a good Lutheran take on it, Mat

wlsessays.net/files/BrugApostles.pdf

I’ll read it and get back to you.

Thanks, Triune.

(BTW, are there any other Lutherans here? I’d like to hear from them if there are any. )

 

[Cinette]

All Christians are saints.

Yes, all Christians aspire to be saints.

When I talk of a Saint I refer to someone who has been declared or canonized a Saint. In the Church we look at these people and their lives as examples and role models to inspire us. In an earlier post the question was put, among others, whether you recognise saints and you responded in a way that led me to believe that you considered Martin Luther a saint. Hence my question

 

[TriuneUnity]

Yes, all Christians aspire to be saints.

When I talk of a Saint I refer to someone who has been declared or canonized a Saint. In the Church we look at these people and their lives as examples and role models to inspire us. In an earlier post the question was put, among others, whether you recognise saints and you responded in a way that led me to believe that you considered Martin Luther a saint. Hence my question

Yeah I understand why you asked. We do not canonize saints. A saint is one who is a baptized child of God, perfectly holy in His sight through the merits of Jesus Christ. We cannot aspire to be saints; we can aspire to be examples of good conduct. We are saints because God has declared us so. Paul emphatically addresses those Christians to whom he writes as saints. In this sense, Luther is a saint.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m sorry, I disagree. But I think Lutherans are a fine and reasonable bunch, don’t get me wrong. And they kept the concept of the Real Presence in Sacramental Union.

You may or may not have you seen it, but there’s also a Consubstantiation thread.

Note: When Anglicans and Catholics [as far as I know] say other churches’ orders aren’t ‘valid’, we are not saying that grace and Sacraments are not present in these churches;

 

[IowaJay]

I’ll read it and get back to you.

Thanks, Triune.

(BTW, are there any other Lutherans here? I’d like to hear from them if there are any. )

Me!

A side point to a question raised earlier - The perpetual virginity of Mary is affirmed in the Latin translation of Luther’s Smalcald Articles, which is one of the confessional documents of the Lutheran church found in the Book of Concord.

 

[jfoges]

Apostolic succession is a difficult issue.

I personally believe that the bishops are successors to the Apostles in a special sense. Through Holy Orders they have a special teaching charism that makes it incumbent on the faithful to listen to their teachings. Their role is to preserve the original kerygma, preaching of Jesus, for all to hear.

On the other hand, everyone who proclaims the teaching of the Apoistles is in a very real sense a successor to the Apostles. There are many lay people who may be more apostlic then any bishop.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Me!

A side point to a question raised earlier - The perpetual virginity of Mary is affirmed in the Latin translation of Luther’s Smalcald Articles, which is one of the confessional documents of the Lutheran church found in the Book of Concord.

That’s true. Article 1.4. Filius ita factus est homo, ut a Spiritu Sancto sine virili opera conciperetur, et ex Maria, pura, sancta sempervirgine nasceretur. “That the Son became a human being, that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit without the manly work, and was born from the pure, holy always Virgin Mary”

What Synod are ya?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Actually, then, you deny the teachings of your own church because the Catechism says that Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ.

Doesn’t that make you a schismatic?

Wrong, it simply states that you are NOT in full communion with us.
It doesn’t make me a schismatic but a devout Catholic in Jesus Christ, the first true Christians of that time, the first church, The Holy Catholic church.

 

[JonNC]

Wrong, it simply states that you are NOT in full communion with us.
It doesn’t make me a schismatic but a devout Catholic in Jesus Christ, the first true Christians of that time, the first church, The Holy Catholic church.

Lumen Gentium

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

Wrong, It states thus:
CCC 818

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, **and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers **… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[272]

 

[Steadfast]

Though “semper virgo” is present in the Latin, it is conspicuously absent from the more widely published and read German.

It is commonly suggested that this is because the translators, at the behest of the authors of the confession wanted to be careful for the sake of consciences to maintain the doctrine’s status as an adiaphora.

 

[IowaJay]

What Synod are ya?

ELCA - Western Iowa Synod. I think I’m probably a bit more orthodox and in tune with the confessions than some of my colleagues in the ELCA.

 

[Steadfast]

Misery Synod here

 

[IowaJay]

Though “semper virgo” is present in the Latin, it is conspicuously absent from the more widely published and read German.

It is commonly suggested that this is because the translators, at the behest of the authors of the confession wanted to be careful for the sake of consciences to maintain the doctrine’s status as an adiaphora.

I’m not well versed enough in the history behind the Confessions to agree or disagree, but your explanation is consistent with that I’ve generally thought about the subject of semper virgo** - it was a commonly held belief among the early reformers and was referred to in the Latin translation, but is not an essential dogma of the Lutheran church, so one can be a Lutheran in good standing and believe otherwise.

As for me, I try to view the confessions in light of the historic teachings of the universal church, so I believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

 

[Steadfast]

I’m not well versed enough in the history behind the Confessions to agree or disagree, but your explanation is consistent with that I’ve generally thought about the subject of semper virgo - it was a commonly held belief among the early reformers and was referred to in the Latin translation, but is not an essential dogma of the Lutheran church, so one can be a Lutheran in good standing and believe otherwise.

As for me, I try to view the confessions in light of the historic teachings of the universal church, so I believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

I accept it as well, Jay but for other reasons.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Misery Synod here

The Kieschnick Synod!

WELS here (I was born and raised LCMS)

Well, we have an ELCA, and LCMS, and a WELS…sounds like a bar in Wisconsin. This means there will be 6 different opinions now.

 

[Matariel]

That’s true. Article 1.4. Filius ita factus est homo, ut a Spiritu Sancto sine virili opera conciperetur, et ex Maria, pura, sancta sempervirgine nasceretur. “That the Son became a human being, that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit without the manly work, and was born from the pure, holy always Virgin Mary”

Yes! Lutherans are so reasonable… I’m glad they don’t reduce Mary to a little creche-figure at Christmas then pack her away permanently when he lights come down.

Do Lutherans ever name churches, like, “Saint Mary Lutheran Church” or things like that?

 

[Matariel]

Are there any doctrines/beliefs that you guys (of differing Lutheran churches) disagree on? Not trying to start WWIII here, just wondering…

Different eclessio-governmental set-up?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Yes! Lutherans are so reasonable… I’m glad they don’t reduce Mary to a little creche-figure at Christmas then pack her away permanently when he lights come down.

Do Lutherans ever name churches, like, “Saint Mary Lutheran Church” or things like that?

Yep. Pretty much. St. , Holy Trinity, Our Savior. Pretty much the same as Catholic churches.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Are there any doctrines/beliefs that you guys (of differing Lutheran churches) disagree on? Not trying to start WWIII here, just wondering…

Different eclessio-governmental set-up?

Well, the list of disagreements that LCMS or WELS Lutherans would have with the ELCA would probably run on for several pages, so I’ll let Iowa address that one haha.

Between the LCMS and WELS, not many. We disagree on fellowshipping with other denominations. LCMS Lutherans will not share the altar for communion with those they disagree with, or exchange pulpits for preaching. Us WELS believe that any form of fellowship requires full doctrinal agreement, not just communion and preaching.

The LCMS doesn’t not allow women pastors, that’s it; we don’t allow women in any form of church office nor do we allow them to vote in the congregation.

Lastly, the LCMS restricts the ministry of the gospel to the role of the pastor. We see any church function called by the congregation to be part of the same ministry, the pastor just being one form.