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SyroMalankara
Guest
Then why would one leave Anglicanism for the Ordinariate? Seems useless except as political action
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peter26
Guest
Sometimes I ask myself the same question and sometimes I have no good answers. One thing I can say is that it was not because of any notion that the RC is the “true” church and the CofE is not, because I don’t believe that for one moment.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
the Church of England doesnt claim to be the true church, so why assign a belief to it that it doesnt claim for itself?
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Vico
Guest
They are not in full unity for the beliefs are different, even though incorporated in the Church of Christ by valid baptism.
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peter26
Guest
Yes, that’s basically it. The one true church isn’t any one organisation, its the collection of all baptised believers. All part of the Body of Christ.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Wrong. You are conflating Church and membership.
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peter26
Guest
Membership of what? Are you simply saying that while all believers are part of the Body of Christ and are therefore part of the Church, the important thing is belonging to the right club? In that case, the rules of the club can be changed, as it seems will soon happen with respect to the Lutherans.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
I never said all believers are part of Christ’s Body - you did.
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Wesrock
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There it is.
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peter26
Guest
There is innumerable evidence for this position. For instance, here’s a quote from Lumen Gentium
Those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church…though we believe they suffer from defects, [they]have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation."
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Wesrock
Guest
The fact that they can be in a certain, imperfect union basically implies that the Church is something more than simply the community of believers. This is just one dimension of the Church.
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peter26
Guest
Its a position also supported in scripture in several places.
One example “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” 1 Corinthians 12:17
One example “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” 1 Corinthians 12:17
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
The validly baptised, of course, do belong to the one Body of Christ.
Ut Unum Sint, paragraph 42
*Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ. /…/
It needs be reaffirmed in this regard that acknowledging our brotherhood is not the consequence of a large-hearted philanthropy or a vague family spirit. It is rooted in recognition of the oneness of Baptism and the subsequent duty to glorify God in his work. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism expresses the hope that Baptisms will be mutually and officially recognized. This is something much more than an act of ecumenical courtesy; it constitutes a basic ecclesiological statement.*
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
The declarations concerning apostolic succession also have to be read through the lens of what the Council Fathers said in Unitatis Redintegratio
*Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.*
I remember the profound effect upon me, as a theologian, when Cardinal Ratzinger summed up many years ago where the theological community was…and the very far reaching impact
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper. [Briefwechsel von Landesbischof Johannes Hanselmann und Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger über das Communio-Schreiben der Römischen Glaubenskongregation, Una Sancta, 48 (1993): 348.]
*Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.*
I remember the profound effect upon me, as a theologian, when Cardinal Ratzinger summed up many years ago where the theological community was…and the very far reaching impact
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper. [Briefwechsel von Landesbischof Johannes Hanselmann und Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger über das Communio-Schreiben der Römischen Glaubenskongregation, Una Sancta, 48 (1993): 348.]
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Now you are moving the goalposts - first you stated “believers”, now it’s “baptized”. Nothing here states “belief” is enough.
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peter26
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I note that you completely disregard the posts by Father Ruggero which seem to lend a lot of support to my argument about all believers being part of the Body of Christ.
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collegeathlete
Guest
While I can only agree that all believers are integrated into the Body of Christ, what you say above is not completely accurate from a Catholic perspective. I’ve linked Dominus Iesus, a declaration from Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger. Quoted below is a relevant part from the declaration; the rest of the fourth section, entitled “Unicity and Unity of the Church”, is also very relevant. I hope you find this helpful!
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Rev Fr. Ruggero posted about baptised persons, subtle difference. The difference is as subtle as someone who “claims” to be your brother vs. the male person born after you to your parents.
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peter26
Guest
Alright, so in your view is a baptised Christian who is not Catholic (say an Anglican or a Lutheran) part of the Body of Christ? And if yes, does this make them (even imperfectly) part of the Church?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
They are baptized into the Catholic Church (if it’s a real baptism), but imperfectly joined since it was done illicitly.
It does, just as every heretic that is baptized, is baptized into the Church (if the baptism is real) - Arius, Nestorius, etc, etc. - their opinion on doctrine or theology or teachings are still wrong and should be avoided.
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