Lutheran Ordinariate???

[MBd]

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have you heard about this? could there be a Lutheran Ordinariate? do you think the Holy Father would accept it? what do you think?

 

[BernadetteM]

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have you heard about this? could there be a Lutheran Ordinariate? do you think the Holy Father would accept it? what do you think?

From my understanding the Anglo Lutheran Catholic Church will enter the Church through the Ordinariate established for Anglicans. This would mean they would use the same liturgies that are being revised now for the Anglicans and they would be under the Ordinary of the Ordinariate.

It is just my feeling that while the Pope and the CDF have had time to look into the Anglicans coming into the Church, it will also take more time for them to verify the education etc. of the Lutherans before they will be ordained and their members received into the Church.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[JonNC]

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have you heard about this? could there be a Lutheran Ordinariate? do you think the Holy Father would accept it? what do you think?

I would be curious as to what marks of Lutheranism would be permitted. IOW, would I be allowed to bring the Augsburg Confession with me, as an authentic Catholic confession of the true faith?

Jon

 

[BernadetteM]

From my understanding they accept the unaltered Augsburg Confession. Since I am not familiar with Lutheran teachings I have no idea what this contains in matter of faith.

Hope that helps.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[JonNC]

From my understanding they accept the unaltered Augsburg Confession. Since I am not familiar with Lutheran teachings I have no idea what this contains in matter of faith.

Hope that helps.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Hi Bernadette,
I know there was a time when then Cr. Ratzinger pondered a possible recognition of the UAC, but I’m kind of certain that hasn’t happened. It would certainly have a dramatic effect, and I believe huge implcations for Church unity if the CDF and pope made such a statement. Alas, I think more needs to be done ecumenically. Pray for the day.

That said, here is the Augsburg Confession:
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

Jon

 

[BernadetteM]

Jon,

Is this different than the unaltered version? Also there were areas that are against the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Such as asking for the intercession of the saints and although unclear it sounded like abstaining from meat of certain days is also denied. They say that we are saved by faith and not works, which of course the Catholic Church teaches, however we also teach that faith without works is a dead faith.

I am a little confused by the statement of the ACLC’s comments that they hold all of what the Catholic Church teaches, if so then it appears the Augsburg Confession goes against some of what the Church teaches. Is there a great difference between the unaltered version and the original one?

Thanks for any information.

Bernadette

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

have you heard about this?

I wasn’t aware that there was any discussion regarding a specifically Lutheran ordinariate or that some Lutherans have requested one.

could there be a Lutheran Ordinariate?

I think it could be possible. There must be some Lutheran distinctives that do not conflict with Catholicism and that which could be interpreted in an orthodox Catholic way.

do you think the Holy Father would accept it?

I think it is possible but it is highly speculative at the moment.

what do you think?

Assuming the Holy Father approves it, I would greet it with great joy and enthusiasm.

 

[gcnuss]

From reading the website of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, it is apparent that its claim to being Lutheran is tenuous at best. Here are a few quotes from that website:

Most Lutheran Churches only have two sacraments: Baptism and Holy Communion. Is this true for the ALCC?
No. In union with the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, the ALCC recognizes seven sacraments and celebrates them using the rites of the Roman Catholic Church exclusively.

But don’t the Lutheran confessional documents in the Book of Concord say that there are only two sacraments?
Yes. But the ALCC disagrees. It does not consider the Lutheran confessional documents in the Book of Concord binding whenever any portion of them conflict with Roman Catholic faith, tradition, order, and spirituality as defined by the documents of the Roman Catholic Magisterium, and presented in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church. Accordingly, the ALCC does not accept the “Formula of Concord” at the end of the Book of Concord on any level, while respecting it as a historic document.

and

What does the ALCC teach about Holy Communion?
The ALCC agrees with the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings about Holy Communion (the Holy Eucharist or the Mass.) When consecrated by a priest, the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ while retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine. This is called “the Miracle of the Mass.” The technical term for this miracle is Transubstantiation. The ALCC rejects all Protestant Eucharistic theologies.

and

How is the ALCC different from other Lutheran Churches?

1. The ALCC accepts the Anglican 39 “Articles of Religion” from The Book of Common Prayer as reconciled with Catholic theology by John Henry Cardinal Newman in Tracts for the Times (only,) and even then only insofar as they agree with Catholic faith, tradition, and spirituality as defined by the Roman Catholic Magisterium.

1. The ALCC accepts The Catechism of the Catholic Church and all other documents of the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church as its ultimate standard of Faith, Order, Tradition, and Spirituality. It believes and teaches nothing contrary to the Catholic Magisterium. All clergy and postulants for ordination are required to sign the Roman Catholic Mandatum, and may not preach, teach, write, or publish anything contrary to the Roman Catholic Magisterium.

1. The ALCC has accepted Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility. Though it is not legally under Papal control at this time, it “beliefes, confesses, teaches, and operates as if it is, and is actively working toward visible, corporate reunion with the Roman Catholic Church. The ALCC’s 2009 petition to enter to enter the Roman Catholic Church has recently been answered by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) with a letter of instruction to enter the Catholic Church “through the provisions of the Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus.” The ALCC has officially accepted the terms and conditions of that letter of instruction. The ALCC also operates under the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law (1989) to the greatest extent practical in matters not covered by its own Canon Law Code.

1. The ALCC teaches that Bishops ordained in the historic Apostolic Succession are of the essence (esse) of the Church. The ALCC’s clergymen are ordained into a sacerdotal (sacrificing) Priesthood consisting of the three Sacred Orders of Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, in the historic Apostolic Succession in lineages recognized as valid by various Popes. It ordaines its clergymen using the most current Ordination Rites of the Catholic Church within the setting of the Mass of Pope Paul VI (Novis Ordo) or the Mass from the Roman Catholic Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship exclusively.

1. The ALCC’s primary apostolic lineage is the Duarte-Costa branch of the Rebiban (Vatican) Succession, though it also holds the apostolic lineage of the Dutch Old Catholic Church among many others which, as noted, have been ruled to be valid by various Popes.

1. The ALCC accepts the Catholic Church’s teachings about “the Last Things,” the Saints, and the Blessed Virgin Mary. It encourages prayers and other devotions to Mary and the Saints, along with all of the other aids to devotion used in Roman Catholicism.

1. The ALCC has the same ecclesiology as does the Roman Catholic Church. It worships using the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church exclusively. It observes the Seasons, Holy Days, and Saint’s Days of the Roman Catholic Church’s Calendar. The ALCC accepts the same books of the Bible recognized by the Catholic Church. The Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation – Dei Verbum and The Pontifical Biblical Commission’s magisterial document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church have been officially adopted as the ALCC’s official statements of the nature and authority of Scripture, the principles and methods to be used to interpret the Bible, and the rules, boundaries, and limitations of those methods.

Based on these statements, it appears that the ALCC rejects all that is distinctively Lutheran and, therefore, it could hardly be called a “Lutheran” church. The Lutheran doctrines it accepts, it accepts only insofar as they do not disagree with Catholic doctrine.

That said, I pray that the ALCC will find its place within the Catholic Church and I continue to pray for the day when all of God’s children will find themselves united again.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Is this different than the unaltered version? Also there were areas that are against the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Such as asking for the intercession of the saints and although unclear it sounded like abstaining from meat of certain days is also denied. They say that we are saved by faith and not works, which of course the Catholic Church teaches, however we also teach that faith without works is a dead faith.

I am a little confused by the statement of the ACLC’s comments that they hold all of what the Catholic Church teaches, if so then it appears the Augsburg Confession goes against some of what the Church teaches. Is there a great difference between the unaltered version and the original one?

Thanks for any information.

Bernadette

Hi Bernadette,
As Pastor Gary has pointed out, the ALCC has it roots in Lutheranism, but as a group, has become completely Romanized (and I don’t mean that as an insult). They claim the majority of the Lutheran Confessions (except I believe for the Formula of Concord), where it is in unison with the teachings of the Catholic Catechism.

Lutherans do believe that a true, saving faith is a fiath that works through love, as Galatians says. It is by Grace alone, thorugh faith in Christ that justifies, but faith is never alone, as we are called to do the good works He has prepared for us to do.

Jon

 

[IAGladfelter]

I would be curious as to what marks of Lutheranism would be permitted. IOW, would I be allowed to bring the Augsburg Confession with me, as an authentic Catholic confession of the true faith?

Jon

No, Jon. The Unaltered Augsburg Confession will not be permitted. One difference between Anglicans and Lutherans is that the Lutheran Patrimony is largely theological where the Anglican patrimony is not.

The Catholic Church has made it crystal clear that all entering an Ordinariate must want to be fully Roman Catholic in every way. Those wanting to bring the insignts of the English (or Lutheran) Reformation into the Catholic Church to reform it will not be welcome; and that is as it should - and must be!

For Lutherans, what is left to bring with them as their Patrimony is musical (Bach, Buxtehude, Schutz, et al.) and cultural. The Lutheran Music and non-theological Culture of Germany and Scandanavia is already shared with Roman Catholics or German and Scandanavian Heritage, and the music of Bach, and Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress is our God” for instance is already being performed in Roman Catholic Churches.

The reason for Lutherans to return to the Catholic Church is only because they want to heal the wounds unnecessarily inflicted on Holy Mother Church in the 16th Century and make Christ’s prayer that all his followers would be one as He and the Father are one - in one Church, under leadership of Christ and his earthly Vicar, the Successor of St. Peter a lived reality once more. Lutherans entering the Catholic Church are doing so because it is not only the right thing to do, but because it is the only right thing to do. Ut Unum Sint!

Blessings,
Irl

 

[JonNC]

No, Jon. The Unaltered Augsburg Confession will not be permitted. One difference between Anglicans and Lutherans is that the Lutheran Patrimony is largely theological where the Anglican patrimony is not.

The Catholic Church has made it crystal clear that all entering an Ordinariate must want to be fully Roman Catholic in every way. Those wanting to bring the insignts of the English (or Lutheran) Reformation into the Catholic Church to reform it will not be welcome; and that is as it should - and must be!

For Lutherans, what is left to bring with them as their Patrimony is musical (Bach, Buxtehude, Schutz, et al.) and cultural. The Lutheran Music and non-theological Culture of Germany and Scandanavia is already shared with Roman Catholics or German and Scandanavian Heritage, and the music of Bach, and Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress is our God” for instance is already being performed in Roman Catholic Churches.

The reason for Lutherans to return to the Catholic Church is only because they want to heal the wounds unnecessarily inflicted on Holy Mother Church in the 16th Century and make Christ’s prayer that all his followers would be one as He and the Father are one - in one Church, under leadership of Christ and his earthly Vicar, the Successor of St. Peter a lived reality once more. Lutherans entering the Catholic Church are doing so because it is not only the right thing to do, but because it is the only right thing to do. Ut Unum Sint!

Blessings,
Irl

So, I wait for other reasons for my personal goal to be reunited with the Bishop of Rome - perhaps reconciliation between my own synod and Rome, or reunification between Rome and the East. Of course, I’ve said before I wish there had been an ALCC parish nearby to “test the waters”.

I do, however, wish you and all those of the ALCC God’s great blessing in word and sacrament.

Jon