Lutheran ordination rite: Anti-Catholic?

[Newbie2]

Sorry for the provocative thread title, I just wanted to generate a little interest in this thread.

Anywho, I was at an ordination for an LCMS minister yesterday, and my ears perked up when I heard this part of the ordination confession/affirmation/vows:

Do you confess the Unaltered Augsburg Confession to be a true exposition of Holy Scripture and a correct exhibition of the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church? And do you confess that the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Small and Large Catechisms of Martin Luther, the Smalcald Articles, the Treatise on the Authority and Primacy of the Pope, and the Formula of Concord — as these are contained in the 1580 Book of Concord — are also in agreement with this one scriptural faith?

I’ve come to two conclusions:

1. That these documents contain essentially all of Lutheran Theology, and as such all are included in the ordination confessions.
2. That there is no such doctrinal statement that is specifically directed toward other Protestant faiths that have doctrine differing from Lutheran doctrine but if there were, it/they would be included in the ordination confessions as well.
3. That at least on the Lutheran side of the aisle, this is a significant roadblock to Lutheran-Catholic unity. There are, of course, significant roadblocks on the Catholic side too.

There is one point in the ordination rites where the congregation is asked whether they support the one being ordained in holding and professing such Lutheran doctrine to be true, but I couldn’t bring myself to answer in the affirmative. It would be like me saying I thought it to be true as well. It was difficult, because my long-term friend was the one being ordained.

So, I sort of affirmed silently that I would support my friend in his ministry in those things that squared with Catholic Theology.

 

[gcnuss]

Sorry for the provocative thread title, I just wanted to generate a little interest in this thread.

I have to admit, it does draw one’s interest.

Anywho, I was at an ordination for an LCMS minister yesterday, and my ears perked up when I heard this part of the ordination confession/affirmation/vows:

Do you confess the Unaltered Augsburg Confession to be a true exposition of Holy Scripture and a correct exhibition of the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church? And do you confess that the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Small and Large Catechisms of Martin Luther, the Smalcald Articles, the Treatise on the Authority and Primacy of the Pope, and the Formula of Concord — as these are contained in the 1580 Book of Concord — are also in agreement with this one scriptural faith?

I’ve come to two conclusions:

1. That these documents contain essentially all of Lutheran Theology, and as such all are included in the ordination confessions.

1. That there is no such doctrinal statement that is specifically directed toward other Protestant faiths that have doctrine differing from Lutheran doctrine but if there were, it/they would be included in the ordination confessions as well.

1. That at least on the Lutheran side of the aisle, this is a significant roadblock to Lutheran-Catholic unity. There are, of course, significant roadblocks on the Catholic side too.

There is one point in the ordination rites where the congregation is asked whether they support the one being ordained in holding and professing such Lutheran doctrine to be true, but I couldn’t bring myself to answer in the affirmative. It would be like me saying I thought it to be true as well. It was difficult, because my long-term friend was the one being ordained.

So, I sort of affirmed silently that I would support my friend in his ministry in those things that squared with Catholic Theology.

As I am not a member of the LCMS, I won’t attempt to answer for that church body. I am a member of the ELCA and our ordination rite doesn’t spell out every document in the Lutheran Confessions. We simply vow to teach in preach in accordance with Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

I have never considered my ordination vows to be anti-Catholic. I have a high regard for the Catholic Church and rejoice in our common faith while facing our differences as things to be discussed and, in God’s time, to be overcome.

 

[Barbkw]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church%E2%80%93Missouri_Synod

From Wikipedia:

"Ordination

Ordination is seen as a public ceremony of recognition that a man has received and accepted a divine call, and hence is considered to be in the office of the ministry.

The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope agrees that “ordination was nothing else than such a ratification” of local elections by the people.[20]

The LCMS does not believe ordination is divinely instituted [21] or an extension of an episcopal form of apostolic succession but sees the office grounded in the word and sacrament ministry of the Gospel, arguing that Scripture makes no distinction between a presbyter (priest) and a bishop (see Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, paragraphs 63,64, citing St. Jerome).

The Augsburg Confession (Article XIV) holds that no one is to preach, teach, or administer the sacraments without a regular call."

For more information about the division between the ELCA and the LCMS see:

lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=17295

(In 2009, the ELCA voted to include practicing homosexual clergy.)

christianpost.com/article/20100506/its-not-too-late-to-reconsider-pro-gay-actions-lcms-tells-elca/

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I think anti-Catholic would probably be incorrect. As they are not Catholic, it makes sense for them to profess beliefs which are contrary to Catholic beliefs, but I don’t see any hostility. Non-Catholic, yes, anti-Catholic, probably not.

Also, I can’t think of a better way to handle the affirmation part than you did, and will probably find myself in a similar situation in not too long with one of my best friends.

 

[Newbie2]

Non-Catholic or Anti-Catholic? You decide. FYI:

47 Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.

If you read the whole thing, it has some very good points about abuses that have occured throughout the years, but…“godless services and doctrine” strikes me as anti-Catholic.

Anyway, I can still pray for his conversion.

 

[SonCatcher]

It doesn’t take much to find a 500-year-old document that is still in use

**A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope

Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald - 1537**

1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowingkingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.
…

The document, unfortunately, seems to be somewhat less than unitive (although the second article appears to be obsolete).

 

[WorkerPriest]

Lutheran ordination into the Office of the Holy Ministry, represents a particular catholic perspective amongst the ancient Fathers. In this sense, it is indeed catholic. However, it diverges from the opinions of Rome, and hence it is not Roman Catholic.

Our confessional statements, as compiled in the 1580 Book of Concord, certainly do point to the controversies of the 16th century. Many of the abuses noted by Lutherans in those Confessions were directed at the papacy of the day, and many of those have been corrected quite laudably over the last 400 years. For this, we give thanks. However, our Confessions also speak to the abuses and errors of other later streams of the Reformation, particularly against the Anabaptists and the Calvinists. The Formula of Concord, which sums up the end of the Book of Concord, spends much ink here.

Hope that helped. Grace and peace, and a blessed Feast of St. Nicholas to you all.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

There are Lutheran confessions that do indeed consider the pope to be the Anti-Christ (and in fact that term has been used by Catholic leaders in history for certain popes).

The Lutheran Liturgical Brotherhood had published its quite excellent daily office book which outlines eight daily offices, the psalter with antiphons, an order for auricular confession, preparation for Communion and even offices in praise of the Virgin Mary and the Saints (the praise of the Virgin Mary can be said at the end of each office).

However, there is just one line in the back that lists psalms that can be said “against the pope and the Anti-Christ.”

When I raised the matter via email with one of the publishers of the book, I was told that while he liked Pope Benedict, he sincerely held to the belief that the pope is indeed the “Anti-Christ.”

I understand that not all Lutherans accept this, so not all Lutherans, of course, believe that.

The one thing I have real difficulty with is how one can see the pope as “Anti-Christ” and yet like Pope Benedict - how can one find anything to like in an “Anti-Christ?”

Alex

 

[WorkerPriest]

Alex,

Lutherans are certainly not of a single mind in this. You will find portions of the Book of Concord that speak of the Pope, or of the papacy, as Anti-Christ (just as you will find willingness to remain under the patrimony of the pope, if he would not try to kill them.) Usually, to my reading, it is from their perspective of persecution and the abuses of the day, which to their eyes seemed to embody the spirit of anti-Christ. I hope I am not being unfair, but the politics of both state and church in the 16th century made for dirty pool on many fronts, and in the mix of all this, the Lutherans often saw a satanic hand in the persecutions which were levied against them.

So, it is noted that when the Pope attempts to run all the kingdoms of the world as a tyrant king, bolsters what seems to be simony in matters of grace, and seeks to murder all opposition to his total rule while declaring that the pope is beyond review by Scripture, council, or any power on earth, one might be able to see why they would paint any such individual as exemplifying the spirit of anti-Christ.

Whatever the real case of the 16th century, today does not afford us a portrait of the pope that looks like the Lutheran confessions. The pope does not run roughshod over the bishops of the world, try to run the political structures of other countries, nor kill off opposition or minority opinion holders. Since the pope does none of these things that inspired the Lutheran reformers to their hostile apologetic, many of us no longer see these charges as applying to the papacy we behold today.

Hence, I have great affection for Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps the Lutheran position would be more akin to the notion that we are prepared (or at least, we ought to be prepared) to walk in fraternal love with the bishop of Rome when he walks in unity with Christ. Our last several popes have been good witnesses to Christ and the Scriptures, and so many of us are glad to walk with him in peace.

Blessings to you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Alex,

Lutherans are certainly not of a single mind in this. You will find portions of the Book of Concord that speak of the Pope, or of the papacy, as Anti-Christ (just as you will find willingness to remain under the patrimony of the pope, if he would not try to kill them.) Usually, to my reading, it is from their perspective of persecution and the abuses of the day, which to their eyes seemed to embody the spirit of anti-Christ. I hope I am not being unfair, but the politics of both state and church in the 16th century made for dirty pool on many fronts, and in the mix of all this, the Lutherans often saw a satanic hand in the persecutions which were levied against them.

So, it is noted that when the Pope attempts to run all the kingdoms of the world as a tyrant king, bolsters what seems to be simony in matters of grace, and seeks to murder all opposition to his total rule while declaring that the pope is beyond review by Scripture, council, or any power on earth, one might be able to see why they would paint any such individual as exemplifying the spirit of anti-Christ.

Whatever the real case of the 16th century, today does not afford us a portrait of the pope that looks like the Lutheran confessions. The pope does not run roughshod over the bishops of the world, try to run the political structures of other countries, nor kill off opposition or minority opinion holders. Since the pope does none of these things that inspired the Lutheran reformers to their hostile apologetic, many of us no longer see these charges as applying to the papacy we behold today.

Hence, I have great affection for Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps the Lutheran position would be more akin to the notion that we are prepared (or at least, we ought to be prepared) to walk in fraternal love with the bishop of Rome when he walks in unity with Christ. Our last several popes have been good witnesses to Christ and the Scriptures, and so many of us are glad to walk with him in peace.

Blessings to you.

I agree, really history is a matter of fact which simply could/should be researched, though sometimes this requires extensive effort to find Truth. At the point of “effort” is where many seem to fall short and base opinion on terrible incorrect research. Fast “google searchs” seem to be taken for absolute truth much to quickly.

The present and past Pope have been very good Bishops of Rome. In particular I have been impressed with the maturity of Benedict XVI.

God Bless, GT

 

[gcnuss]

Hence, I have great affection for Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps the Lutheran position would be more akin to the notion that we are prepared (or at least, we ought to be prepared) to walk in fraternal love with the bishop of Rome when he walks in unity with Christ. Our last several popes have been good witnesses to Christ and the Scriptures, and so many of us are glad to walk with him in peace.

Blessings to you.

Well said.

 

[WorkerPriest]

GT,

Another thought occured to me on this topic, that I thought I would vet for consideration. I am a student of the Lutheran Confessions as well as the Fathers and Councils, and while I would not pretend to speak authoritatively for any of them, I have dwelt upon them and their original sources for a long time (and hope to do so for much longer.)

Something that strikes me, is that when the Confessions speak of the pope or papacy, they tend to speak of a system which is both political and ecclesiastical. Rarely do the Confessions actually speak to the person of a particular pope, and Luther has several letters written very kindly to particular popes during his own lifetime. In our day, when people speak of the pope, I think it is more common for people to actually intend the individual person, rather than the system within which he functions. Certainly, some popes have more or less reflected that system, to better or worse ends.

Perhaps a common ground can be achieved with more precision of language. I’ve heard many of my Roman Catholic friends speak of the unpleasantness of the Vatican per se, and by this, it seems to me that they intend to refer to a system which has historically brought forth some real nastiness, often in opposition to good popes. Perhaps if Lutherans and Roman Catholics refered to this political/ecclesiastical system when they refered to the abuses of particular times and places, and could distinguish from the person of individual popes, we might be able to evaluate things historical with less passion.

Anyway, just a thought which hit my little brain this morning. Have a blessed day.

I agree, really history is a matter of fact which simply could/should be researched, though sometimes this requires extensive effort to find Truth. At the point of “effort” is where many seem to fall short and base opinion on terrible incorrect research. Fast “google searchs” seem to be taken for absolute truth much to quickly.

The present and past Pope have been very good Bishops of Rome. In particular I have been impressed with the maturity of Benedict XVI.

God Bless, GT

 

[WorkerPriest]

Thanks, mate.

Well said.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alex,

Lutherans are certainly not of a single mind in this. You will find portions of the Book of Concord that speak of the Pope, or of the papacy, as Anti-Christ (just as you will find willingness to remain under the patrimony of the pope, if he would not try to kill them.) Usually, to my reading, it is from their perspective of persecution and the abuses of the day, which to their eyes seemed to embody the spirit of anti-Christ. I hope I am not being unfair, but the politics of both state and church in the 16th century made for dirty pool on many fronts, and in the mix of all this, the Lutherans often saw a satanic hand in the persecutions which were levied against them.

So, it is noted that when the Pope attempts to run all the kingdoms of the world as a tyrant king, bolsters what seems to be simony in matters of grace, and seeks to murder all opposition to his total rule while declaring that the pope is beyond review by Scripture, council, or any power on earth, one might be able to see why they would paint any such individual as exemplifying the spirit of anti-Christ.

Whatever the real case of the 16th century, today does not afford us a portrait of the pope that looks like the Lutheran confessions. The pope does not run roughshod over the bishops of the world, try to run the political structures of other countries, nor kill off opposition or minority opinion holders. Since the pope does none of these things that inspired the Lutheran reformers to their hostile apologetic, many of us no longer see these charges as applying to the papacy we behold today.

Hence, I have great affection for Pope Benedict XVI. Perhaps the Lutheran position would be more akin to the notion that we are prepared (or at least, we ought to be prepared) to walk in fraternal love with the bishop of Rome when he walks in unity with Christ. Our last several popes have been good witnesses to Christ and the Scriptures, and so many of us are glad to walk with him in peace.

Blessings to you.

Well, I am overwhelmed by your spiritual depth and deep reflections! Thank you for the blessing of your grace-filled words!!

I ask for your prayers, dear Servant of God and Christ!

Alex

 

[WorkerPriest]

Dear Alex,

Your kindness humbles this poor, wretched sinner. But be sure to know, you have my prayers.

Grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Well, I am overwhelmed by your spiritual depth and deep reflections! Thank you for the blessing of your grace-filled words!!

I ask for your prayers, dear Servant of God and Christ!

Alex