Lutheran pastor: Do not be afraid to ask for the intercession of the saints

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JonNC said:
Hi Wm,
Not speaking for Pastor Gary, but I hope you don’t mind my comment. I believe, at least from my understanding, that for Lutherans, saying that we “disregard” the D-C’s is overstating.

Regarding Raphael, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Notice 2 things: 1) we recognize that Angels do pray for us, and we believe the saints do, as well. The question posed by the reformers regarding the saints is whether or not they (the saints) can hear our requests for intercession. And I think Pastor Gary makes that point - no testimony in scripture concerning pray to the saints. At another point, the confession says there is no command, promise, or example, except, as said here, for a dream in 2 Macc, and some might also say the vision in Revelation.
I personally, don’t believe this necessarily excludes the possibility, or even needs to result in a condemnation, of the practice. What it does say to me is that, short of a scriptural command, promise, or example, the conscience of the believer should not be bound to believe it. IOW, as this is not a matter directly involving salvation, the believer ought to have some freedom in the matter.
2) Notice that the reformers were not afraid to mention the D-C’s. Some charge that Luther and Lutherans base their questioning of the D-C’s on the contents. I would contend it has more to do with the history of D-C’s, and the many who also questioned their canonicity long prior to Luther.

Jon
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Hi Jon, thanks for the response, I always value your wisdom and explanations. I really do not want to get into cutting and pasting the volumes of cited references regarding intercessory prayer, I am sure you have seen it all before. However from my “Catholic” perspective, I do understand, support and believe in the intercession of Saints and the Blessed Mother. But the most important aspect of this is that I want to make it clear to those who are unfamiliar with the concept is that it is always the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that is the focus, ultimate goal, final authority, and that it is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who answer any prayers put to Them either directly or through intersession.
 
wmscott said:
Hi Jon, thanks for the response, I always value your wisdom and explanations. I really do not want to get into cutting and pasting the volumes of cited references regarding intercessory prayer, I am sure you have seen it all before. However from my “Catholic” perspective, I do understand, support and believe in the intercession of Saints and the Blessed Mother. But the most important aspect of this is that I want to make it clear to those who are unfamiliar with the concept is that it is always the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that is the focus, ultimate goal, final authority, and that it is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who answer any prayers put to Them either directly or through intersession.
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I have no doubt that most Catholics share your perspective. It is one I respect. So many Catholics and Orthodox are comforted by the practice, and I’m certain the Lord hears all these prayers. I pray that it will continue to be a blessing to you.

Jon
 
There seeming to be a lot of interest in why some Lutherans are staying in the ELCA, I will start a thread on that topic so we can stop hijacking this thread.
 
wmscott said:
Since you are a Lutheran pastor I would like to ask your opinion of the following from Tobit. I know that it is one of the Deuterocanonical books, which Protestants have removed from their bibles or disregard as being uninspired, however it goes to one of the points and references that the Catholic Church has with regards to intercessory prayer through the Blessed Mother and the Saints. I personally think that because of the divisions in the Church and the Protestant practice of “watering down” of a lot of the Catholic big “T” Traditions, Christianity has missed out on a lot of wonderful and beautiful aspects of the Christian faith. Here are the verses I was interested in you commenting on. Thanks in advance for your response.

Tobit 12:12-15 - “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”

Raphael is one of the seven specially designated intercessors who present man’s prayers to God. To me this indicates very clearly that those in heaven do hear us
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While I don’t claim to be any sort of an expert on those who inhabit the heavenly kingdom, I would put Raphael, who I understand is one of the archangels, in a different category from the saints who lived on earth, whose lives have demonstrated great faithfulness despite their human frailty, and who now are part of the Church Triumphant. I can accept that the angels and archangels, God’s messengers, are able to hear us. I’m not at the point where I believe the same about the saints.
 
qui_est_ce said:
There are plenty of university and teaching jobs for Lutheran pastors who convert. Ask Marcus Grodi. 😉
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Ah, but when one is rapidly heading toward the end of his seventh decade, the options tend to be a bit more limited.😃
 
gcnuss said:
Ah, but when one is rapidly heading toward the end of his seventh decade, the options tend to be a bit more limited.😃
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You and JonNC are so charitable, you make me want to become Lutheran. 🙂
 
gcnuss said:
While I don’t claim to be any sort of an expert on those who inhabit the heavenly kingdom, I would put Raphael, who I understand is one of the archangels, in a different category from the saints who lived on earth, whose lives have demonstrated great faithfulness despite their human frailty, and who now are part of the Church Triumphant. I can accept that the angels and archangels, God’s messengers, are able to hear us. I’m not at the point where I believe the same about the saints.
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Thanks
 
Hello. To pastor Gary, thanks for standing firm in your more traditional understanding of Lutheranism. God bless you.
If I could, let me answer a few questions with regards to the intercession of saints. Can the saints hear us? Well, this comes down to faith. So many times I hear Protestants say things like “Grandma is in heaven watching over us now.” Now why do we believe this? It comes down to faith. But aren’t the saints dead? Well, Scripture tells that those who have died, if they are believers, are alive in Christ. So, the saints really aren’t dead. Btw, all the validly baptized are part of the Communion of Saints. Can the saints give us things? no, not any more than you or I can answer another person’s prayer. Is the invocation of the saints necessary for salvation? No, neither is asking a friend or relative for their prayers, although Scripture encourages to pray for one another. But why not address prayers directly to God? The saints do this, just as we do here on earth. When it comes to the invocation of the saints, I prefer to use the term “pray with” rather than “pray to”. After all, the saints pray with us, and for us. As far as burying statues, I can understand why this might seem a bit excessive. I imagine the saints as members of the church (I’m using the more general term here); who if they were here, would encourage me to strengthen my relationship with God, and they would pray for me. I like Roman Catholicism, but I learned to apreciate the saints from reading early church fathers and researching Eastern Catholic rites and prayers. To the poster who quoted Luther’s Apology of the Augsburg Confession, that was an excellent quote. I’m thinking of sending it to my mom. Sorry if all this has been repeated. I just wanted to offer my understanding on this subject as an LCMS member. Hope this helps.
 
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SamDash:
2 Tim 2:1 (NKJV)
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men…

👍
 
loneviking said:
This church and it’s minister are members of ELCA. These are the Lutherans (if you can call them that) that now ordain homosexuals and have women ministers (along with other problems). As far as many of us in the LCMS, WELS and other synods can see, they have walked away from the Lutheran Confessions and really aren’t Lutherans anymore.
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I wholeheartedly disagree, and I can;t see any circumstance where I would ever ask for a saint’s intercession.
 
missB said:
If I could, let me answer a few questions with regards to the intercession of saints. Can the saints hear us? Well, this comes down to faith. So many times I hear Protestants say things like “Grandma is in heaven watching over us now.” Now why do we believe this? It comes down to faith. But aren’t the saints dead? Well, Scripture tells that those who have died, if they are believers, are alive in Christ.
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It is true that that saints are alive in Christ. That earthly death is not “the end” is one of the great consolations to those who mourn. We believe in the power of the resurrection. At the same time, the notion that “Grandma is in heaven watching over us” is only a notion. My personal opinion is that making Grandma watch us mess up things down here is not congruent with the idea of heaven being a place where one has left the worries of this world behind.
So, the saints really aren’t dead. Btw, all the validly baptized are part of the Communion of Saints. Can the saints give us things? no, not any more than you or I can answer another person’s prayer. Is the invocation of the saints necessary for salvation? No, neither is asking a friend or relative for their prayers, although Scripture encourages to pray for one another. But why not address prayers directly to God? The saints do this, just as we do here on earth. When it comes to the invocation of the saints, I prefer to use the term “pray with” rather than “pray to”. After all, the saints pray with us, and for us.
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I agree with you totally.
As far as burying statues, I can understand why this might seem a bit excessive.
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As was noted above by Christine, sticking a statue of St. Joseph upside down in a hole in the back yard to speed up the selling of a house reeks of superstition. If I were St. Joseph, the house would never sell.😃
I imagine the saints as members of the church (I’m using the more general term here); who if they were here, would encourage me to strengthen my relationship with God, and they would pray for me.
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Indeed, the saints examples are good to follow. Their stories have much to teach us.
I like Roman Catholicism, but I learned to apreciate the saints from reading early church fathers and researching Eastern Catholic rites and prayers. To the poster who quoted Luther’s Apology of the Augsburg Confession, that was an excellent quote.
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I agree that there is much to like about Catholicism. One minor note – Melanchton was the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession although we can be pretty sure that Luther was not unaware of what he was writing.
 
JonNC said:
I commend Pastor Hauser for this, a recognition as to one of the reasons why the Lutheran reformers discouraged invocation. That is, the abuse of the practice during the Reformation era.
And as a Lutheran, I consider two things: 1) invocation is a centuries old practice both east and west. 2) while there may be no explicit command, promise, or example of it in scripture, neither is there a specific prohibition.

My hope is that Pastor Hauser’s comments spark a new discussion of invocation among Lutherans, with an eye on the real reasons for its discouragement in the confessions, and consider whether or not those reasons still exist.

bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php

Jon
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:amen:
missB said:
Hello. To pastor Gary, thanks for standing firm in your more traditional understanding of Lutheranism. God bless you.
If I could, let me answer a few questions with regards to the intercession of saints. Can the saints hear us? Well, this comes down to faith. So many times I hear Protestants say things like “Grandma is in heaven watching over us now.” Now why do we believe this? It comes down to faith. But aren’t the saints dead? Well, Scripture tells that those who have died, if they are believers, are alive in Christ. So, the saints really aren’t dead. Btw, all the validly baptized are part of the Communion of Saints. Can the saints give us things? no, not any more than you or I can answer another person’s prayer. Is the invocation of the saints necessary for salvation? No, neither is asking a friend or relative for their prayers, although Scripture encourages to pray for one another. But why not address prayers directly to God? The saints do this, just as we do here on earth. When it comes to the invocation of the saints, I prefer to use the term “pray with” rather than “pray to”. After all, the saints pray with us, and for us. As far as burying statues, I can understand why this might seem a bit excessive. I imagine the saints as members of the church (I’m using the more general term here); who if they were here, would encourage me to strengthen my relationship with God, and they would pray for me. I like Roman Catholicism, but I learned to apreciate the saints from reading early church fathers and researching Eastern Catholic rites and prayers. To the poster who quoted Luther’s Apology of the Augsburg Confession, that was an excellent quote. I’m thinking of sending it to my mom. Sorry if all this has been repeated. I just wanted to offer my understanding on this subject as an LCMS member. Hope this helps.
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:hug1:

May we all one day cast our crowns at:byzsoc: His feet…together.:byzsoc: :byzsoc: :byzsoc:
 
gcnuss said:
house reeks of superstition. If I were St. Joseph, the house would never sell.😃
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Me too, but then St Joseph wouldn’t engage in Schadenfreude!
gcnuss said:
Indeed, the saints examples are good to follow. Their stories have much to teach us.
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Somewhere in my numerous notes from homilies, I have written, "the saints are our magnifying lenses to God.
I agree that there is much to like about Catholicism. One minor note – Melanchton was the author of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession although we can be pretty sure that Luther was not unaware of what he was writing.
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I have been in RCIA with people in their '80’s! You seem more knowledgeable than most Catholics about what the Church actually teaches, you might be able to teach RCIA. 🙂
 
Zooey said:
I know this isn’t how you meant this post to be taken, but Thank You for the:) beautiful resource; I have marked it as one of my favorites.

[bibledrb]Gen 50:20 [/bibledrb]
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Yes Zooey it is quite a beautiful resource is it not? 🙂
 
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