Lutheran School for Catholic?

[julia1234]

I have a decision to make where to send my Catholic son next year for middle school. The Catholic school available to us will have class sizes of almost 30 kids. (they will split for some classes) I know already this has a negative effect on my sons education. Also, he is a quiet kid and prefers smaller, quieter settings. There is a Lutheran run school closer to us with much smaller class sizes, (approx. 12) and more male teachers as well, which I believe is important for boys, and the Principal is a wonderful person. The Catholic school would only have one male for a computer class twice a week and even the coach is female. I prefer the actual building and grounds of the Lutheran school as well, although that should not factor into my choice I know. One more thing, the Catholic school does not have the overall ‘warmth’ the Lutheran one did during our visits. There were some pretty unhappy looking teachers/kids at the Catholic school and it seemed more hectic, of course this is just 1st/2nd impressions. BTW, the public schools in our area are not an option. I appreciate any opinions on this. We of course would attend Catholic Mass on Sunday and CCD and I would need to confirm they aren’t going to directly teach against Catholic beliefs. They do accept all religions. This would be for 6,7 and 8th grade, then he would attend the Catholic High School at that point.

 

[Regina7]

Don’t do it. This is your son’s soul. Are you willing to put it in danger because of things like class size and computers?

Any possibility of homeschooling?

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Don’t do it. This is your son’s soul. Are you willing to put it in danger because of things like class size and computers?

Any possibility of homeschooling?

Really?.. You think going to a Lutheran school will put his son’s soul in danger? Not so much here. Your son’s soul is not in danger by the school he attends. What you do as a family is much more important. Lots of kids have gone to public schools and CCD classes and with the support of the family at home have become strong faithful Catholics.

I’ve been teaching for 25 years, in public, Catholic, Prostant, and Jewish schools. My children attend public school. We PRACTICE the faith daily at home. So far, they have remained faithful to the church.

In all my experience it is the FAMILY that makes the difference. I can’t tell you how many children who have attended Catholic schools and now do not follow the faith. The main reason appears to be that the family didn’t practice the faith at home. When I ask them why they don’t attend Mass weekly, or volunteer at the parish they say “We don’t need to do that now, they go to Catholic school and they take care of all that”. No kidding.

Pick the school that has the best fit for your child. Go to CCD. Volunteer in the parish. show them our faith is important. Practice the faith daily. Best gift you could ever give your son.

 

[pianistclare]

Many kids in our area who leave the Catholic school (for whatever reason) tend to end up at the nearby Lutheran school. As far as I can tell, no one ever ended up Lutheran.
Having said that, many of us went to Catholic schools with 30 kids per class, and we turned out fine.
Shy kids learn to speak up. Domineering children learn to take their turn and be quiet. It’s an unpopular and politically incorrect opinion, I know, but I worked in a Catholic school with low class size. It wasn’t all that different. There was just more space in the actual classroom, that was taken up by “stuff”.
I would investigate the faith formation part of their curriculum. If there is a huge emphasis on being Lutheran, no, I would send my kids there. If they really don’t do anything except have Chapel once a week…you can handle it by being VERY active in your parish. Which one should do for your kids anyway.

Supporting your local Catholic school goes a long way to ensuring your children’s beliefs.
You can learn Biology and Math anywhere. But where can you learn the faith daily?
If your only concern is class size? I say “meh”.
Keep them in Catholic school.

 

[z_0101]

Julia,
IMHO, unless you have some more compelling reasons that you’ve not listed, then IMHO you should send your child to the Catholic school.

30 students is not that large. Many parents would pay 10x what you are going to pay to have a class that size. I sympathize with your child’s need for a more sedate environment; however, you do him no service at this point in his life by not exposing him in a controlled environment to what he will HAVE to deal with as an adult. In fact, many of the cities in the US have an average class size of 30 to 35 students per teacher. (I was in public school in California, I think the class size was closer to the 35/teacher with a total enrollment close to if not well over 2000 students 9 thru 12 grade).

My other concern here is his age. This is the age where either the parents must take up the cross in the child’s faith development. This means going to Mass on Sundays, Holy Days, saying grace before meals, going to confession and taking him along too… and more importantly, parents must ensure that he receives a **consistent **message that explains the **truth **about the Catholic faith, which I am sorry to say, he will **not **receive in a Lutheran school. He will most likely start receiving one version from the Lutheran school and a different version from the Catholic Religious education classes - this will more than likely lead to a lot of confusion about his faith (ie, The Holy Mother, Cookie worshipers, bead rattlers, etc…)

He may in fact be persecuted for being Catholic depending on the school staff and the other children. I have nothing against the Lutheran faith itself nor her church; however, when I converted to the Catholic faith, many (but not all) of the Lutherans at work were not so friendly to me - they work with me, they treat me with respect; however, the warmth isn’t there for me as it was before my conversion and they have so many wrong beliefs about the Catholic faith and no hope of them changing their mind. In one RCIA class that I was a core team member on, on poor Lady was thrown out of her parent’s home when she went for a visit - with the grandchild. I think this is a more local “flavor” of Lutherans than an over all statement.

I highly advise you and your family to run for the Catholic school boards of education, sit down with your pastor and the school administration to find way to be involved with your school’s education process and to discuss your reservations. Find the Chaplin assigned to your school and talk to him about your impressions. Be proactive and get involved!

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Julia,
IMHO, unless you have some more compelling reasons that you’ve not listed, then IMHO you should send your child to the Catholic school.

30 students is not that large. Many parents would pay 10x what you are going to pay to have a class that size. I sympathize with your child’s need for a more sedate environment; however, you do him no service at this point in his life by not exposing him in a controlled environment to what he will HAVE to deal with as an adult. In fact, many of the cities in the US have an average class size of 30 to 35 students per teacher. (I was in public school in California, I think the class size was closer to the 35/teacher with a total enrollment close to if not well over 2000 students 9 thru 12 grade).

My other concern here is his age. This is the age where either the parents must take up the cross in the child’s faith development. This means going to Mass on Sundays, Holy Days, saying grace before meals, going to confession and taking him along too… and more importantly, parents must ensure that he receives a **consistent **message that explains the **truth **about the Catholic faith, which I am sorry to say, he will **not **receive in a Lutheran school. He will most likely start receiving one version from the Lutheran school and a different version from the Catholic Religious education classes - this will more than likely lead to a lot of confusion about his faith (ie, The Holy Mother, Cookie worshipers, bead rattlers, etc…)

He may in fact be persecuted for being Catholic depending on the school staff and the other children. I have nothing against the Lutheran faith itself nor her church; however, when I converted to the Catholic faith, many (but not all) of the Lutherans at work were not so friendly to me - they work with me, they treat me with respect; however, the warmth isn’t there for me as it was before my conversion and they have so many wrong beliefs about the Catholic faith and no hope of them changing their mind. In one RCIA class that I was a core team member on, on poor Lady was thrown out of her parent’s home when she went for a visit - with the grandchild. I think this is a more local “flavor” of Lutherans than an over all statement.

I highly advise you and your family to run for the Catholic school boards of education, sit down with your pastor and the school administration to find way to be involved with your school’s education process and to discuss your reservations. Find the Chaplin assigned to your school and talk to him about your impressions. Be proactive and get involved!

30 kids are a lot now a days. Public schools here cap classes at 22 with a full time paraprofessional. Catholic school caps at 25 no aid.

 

[MaryT777]

I would definitely as you said make sure they are not going to be taught anything anti Catholic but if they are affiliated with a confessional Lutheran Synod such as LCMS I would not send them to the school if my child was to be taught actual Lutheran doctrine.

Mary.

 

[1ke]

I appreciate any opinions on this.

My opinion is that it concerns me that 3/4 of your post was about class size, male teachers, and perception of the “warmth” of the two schools and only a sentence or two was about religion.

The purpose of sending a child to a religious school should be, first and foremost, religion.

It is not possible to send your child to a Lutheran school without them being influenced by Lutheran doctrine. Middle school is a very impressionable age, IMHO the wrong time to be sending such mixed messages.

I think it’s playing with fire to send your kid to a school that will teach him something other than the Catholic faith in its fullest.

 

[boomerang]

As long as they are not teaching things that are anti-Catholic, It shouldn’t be a problem. Our parish priest went to a Lutheran college just because it had a football program.

 

[Xantippe]

I have a decision to make where to send my Catholic son next year for middle school. The Catholic school available to us will have class sizes of almost 30 kids. (they will split for some classes) I know already this has a negative effect on my sons education.

**30 doesn’t sound terrible for middle school.

I would be most concerned about the overall size of the school more than the class size. I think public middle school is well worth avoiding–they’re way too big, impersonal, and kids seem to get lost in that setting. Plus, it’s often academically a nightmare.
**

Also, he is a quiet kid and prefers smaller, quieter settings. There is a Lutheran run school closer to us with much smaller class sizes, (approx. 12) and more male teachers as well, which I believe is important for boys, and the Principal is a wonderful person.

**He’ll eventually need to cope with bigger, louder settings.

12 is really small for middle school. At that size, it’s possible that it will be hard for him to meet kids that he clicks with.**

The Catholic school would only have one male for a computer class twice a week and even the coach is female. I prefer the actual building and grounds of the Lutheran school as well, although that should not factor into my choice I know. One more thing, the Catholic school does not have the overall ‘warmth’ the Lutheran one did during our visits. There were some pretty unhappy looking teachers/kids at the Catholic school and it seemed more hectic, of course this is just 1st/2nd impressions. BTW, the public schools in our area are not an option. I appreciate any opinions on this. We of course would attend Catholic Mass on Sunday and CCD and I would need to confirm they aren’t going to directly teach against Catholic beliefs. They do accept all religions. This would be for 6,7 and 8th grade, then he would attend the Catholic High School at that point.

We have two kids at a Protestant school and this is our eighth year with the school (oldest started in K and is now in 7th grade). It’s not affiliated with a particular denomination, but it has a lot of informal ties to a Catholic-friendly (really!) Baptist church. It’s been a very good experience (although half as many projects would be A-OK with me). We have had a handful of liturgical misfires over the years: having to tell a 1st grader that she wouldn’t be having a burger on grandparent’s day because it’s a Friday during Lent and we’re Catholic, having to bring kids home early because their classes were celebrating Valentine’s Day on Ash Wednesday, etc. But that’s over eight years.

The class sizes at our school have been gradually rising. Initially, there were a lot of 8-10 kid classes, and I think the school was just barely making ends meet. Nowadays, my 4th grader is in a class of 18 (I think) and my 7th grader’s class might be around 19 or so, but it doesn’t seem to be a problem, and it does mean that the school finances are in much better shape. Early on, the smaller class size was very important for our oldest, who is mildly autistic, but it’s been less and less important as time goes on. The small size of the school (PK-12 with probably 300ish total enrollment by now) as a whole is much more important in making it feel safe and homelike for the kids.

We also do CCD and my husband has lots of theological and philosophical discussions with the big kids.

Good luck!

 

[z_0101]

30 kids are a lot now a days. Public schools here cap classes at 22 with a full time paraprofessional. Catholic school caps at 25 no aid.

Interesting… I had to go back and review the numbers (at one point I had a teaching cert and part of that instruction was looking at the effect of class size on student learning):
Looking at the department of ed’s data, the numbers you reference certainly fall in line with the national average with a low of 18 and a high around 32.

I did note though that areas with high populations of students do tend to reach that 30/teacher ratio in the public schools and yet the parochial schools in those same areas still tend to hold that 25 max with a para.

Of note: Our diocese also caps students at 25max/teacher/grade. Which makes me wonder if that is a global policy. Something I can check as I know the Fr in charge of our education program.

 

[Xantippe]

Interesting… I had to go back and review the numbers (at one point I had a teaching cert and part of that instruction was looking at the effect of class size on student learning):
Looking at the department of ed’s data, the numbers you reference certainly fall in line with the national average with a low of 18 and a high around 32.

I did note though that areas with high populations of students do tend to reach that 30/teacher ratio in the public schools and yet the parochial schools in those same areas still tend to hold that 25 max with a para.

Of note: Our diocese also caps students at 25max/teacher/grade. Which makes me wonder if that is a global policy. Something I can check as I know the Fr in charge of our education program.

Years ago, I was looking for schools for my oldest. I toured a Catholic elementary with 25 or 26 students in kindergarten (a real zoo). And no aide, I think. Then I visited a public elementary school within walking distance and found that 14 kids was the most I saw in any classroom (probably thanks to Title 1). And it was actually a pretty good neighborhood and a pretty good public school…

We wound up leaving that part of the country, but all things being equal, I think the public school would have been the wiser choice for our oldest. The parochial school kindergarten teacher would have had a heck of a time dealing with our oldest plus another 25 5-year-olds.

 

[retire_early]

One thing you might want to think about is the friends your son will make. I doubt the Lutheran kids will be going to the Catholic high school that you have picked out for your son. Seems like the freshman year in high school is always a little rough, especially if you are not already connected with a lot of the others in your class. Why not send him to the Catholic school for his first year of middle school and try it out? It might be OK. If its a “bust”, you can switch him to the Lutheran school for the other two years of middle school. At least that way he will remember and re-connect with some of the kids from the Catholic school when he enters high school. Making life-long friends is a really good thing.

 

[retire_early]

Dang! How is it that those religious sisters we had for teachers in the '60’s were able to have classes of 40 - 50 children, maintain order, teach, and have a good majority of the graduates go on to college and successful careers as doctors, lawyers, engineers and every other job you can think of? Was it sitting in straight rows, single file? Was it keeping our hands folded on our desk (just so) while we listened? Stern looks? Uniforms? Fountain pens? White shirts and blouses? Prayer first thing, mid-day and end of day? Something…not sure what. Oh, hey…maybe it was the floor-length habits?

And the tuition was $12 /year!

 

[julia1234]

Thanks for all the great information and advice - lots of things to consider, reconsider, and look into to help me in my decision! I’ll check back in and let you know what I end up doing over the next few days.

 

[Rose71]

Well, if it’s any help to you, out of the children in my class at Primary school (Catholic) the ones who still attend Mass are the ones who went on to Anglican high schools!

If the Lutheran school promotes values of hard work, discipline and caring for one another, then it’s up to you to explain what makes a Catholic a Catholic at home and through the Church. The real crunch comes when children are older and sex education begins, but going to a Catholic high school is not going to protect your children from learning about contraception!

In the UK where I grew up, I was taught about the various choices of birth control aged 12 as part of the biology syllabus and again aged 15-16 as part of the GCSE Biology exam. Amazingly, I managed to remain a virgin until my wedding night. Why? Because my parents were sensible and I just never had the opportunity to stay out late at night, or drink, or take drugs.

My Anglican school was in a good area and all the pupils there shared the same basic values. The local Catholic high school was the place to go if you wanted to smoke, drink, stay out late and lose your virginity asap!!!

 

[z_0101]

My Anglican school was in a good area and all the pupils there shared the same basic values. The local Catholic high school was the place to go if you wanted to smoke, drink, stay out late and lose your virginity asap!!!

What a said commentary about the Catholic schools in the UK… I hope they are not all like that… here in the area I live, it is the public schools where one goes to smoke, drink, etc… (not to say we don’t have a few deviants in the Catholic school; however, when caught, they’re most likely suspended the first time, expelled for the remainder of the year the second time (we have to expel them so that they are eligible for either the public or home schooling otherwise we would suspend them for the same time period), and the third time they’re expelled from the system.)

 

[Rose71]

Unfortunately, many Catholic schools in the UK today are only Catholic by name. There are some independent (private) Catholic schools where the Governors have more authority to decide on matters such as religious syllabus and discipline, but the majority of schools are state schools.

It’s something of a generalisation, but a lot depends on the location of the school and the type of neighbourhood it is in. For years there has been a very counter-productive agenda that seems to resist encouraging pupils from less wealthy backgrounds from striving to be achieve or confronting anti-social behaviour in the classroom. I think the observation in a previous post about children sitting in orderly rows, wearing the correct uniform and treating school as a place to learn self-discipline as well as academic work says it all Those were the days when social mobility was a reality and children from poorer neighbourhoods had the chance to learn and achieve. In the UK, we’ve lost that ethos in many schools.

My nephew is currently at a primary (aged 4 to 11) Catholic school in the UK. He’s recently made his First Communion, Confession and been Confirmed. He’s the only child in his school who regularly attands Mass at the Parish church. He went through a stage of not wanting to go to Mass, saying it was ‘boring’ and proclaiming that going to Mass on a Sunday wasn’t really important, because some people could act holy on a Sunday and be awful during the week and it was more important to be a good person.

We explained to him that this was a false choice: that listening to the readings and taking part in the Mass properly helps one to be a good person and should inspire one’s acts of kindness outside Mass.

“Oh no!” he said, “Mass isn’t important. People who do good deeds outside Mass are better!”

So, we asked him about receiving the Eucharist now he’d made his 1st Communion and how impoertant it was to be able to receive the Body of Christ.

“Oh no! That’s not actually true! It can’t really be the Body of Christ! Nobody believes that: it just represents the Body of Christ and it doesn’t matter if you have it every Sunday or not!”

We asked him where this information came from and he named his class teacher! Incidentally, my mother went to one of his Sacramental Preparation classes with him and said there was absolutely no mention of Catholic doctrine. It was all ‘woolly’ stuff about being nice. There wasn’t one mention of what the Sacraments actually meant.

When I mentioned this to some teachers in the parish who teach at a different school, I was told it was okay to teach that sort of ideology because they didn’t want to ‘offend’ anyone whose parents didn’t attend Mass. I countered that if one sent one’s child to a Catholic school, one had made the choice to have their child exposed to Catholic teaching - sacraments and all. This was met with horror! What about all the non-Catholic and lapsed Catholics who send their children to the school? If they went, how would the school survive?

I am sure the school would survive and thrive if the discipline and quality of teaching was such that it attracted more pupils. Right now in the UK, the system of inspecting and grading schools means that a school can only be ‘Outstanding’ if it promotes secular values and ‘learning by choice’

If I was not in a position to afford an independent Catholic school, I would look for the best available primary school, regardless of denomination.

 

[julia1234]

Well, this is all bringing up so much to think over. I really wish there was a ‘modern’ version of rows, hands folded on the desk and strict caring guidance but I I can’t find it in any school I’ve researched. I’d even be willing to move for it! I do know they have some drug issues in the Catholic High School here where he will eventually attend, but they do in all the other schools as far as I can tell:-( I’m leaning toward the Catholic Middle School as of now but not committed yet. It does set a solid ‘Catholic and no questions asked’ tone and I do like the idea there will be more kids to form bonds with to carry into high school, that is a good point. That Lutheran school is just so inviting still for so many reasons and now my son is telling me how dreary the building is at the Catholic school as well, a couple of the rooms don’t even have windows! (maybe that’s good, he won’t be looking out them I’m not rushed into a decision quite yet but at this point I think I might just be avoiding a commitment to something I’m not completely sold on, especially with the money involved and driving distance. Thanks for all the great (name removed by moderator)ut on this.

 

[z_0101]

Rows of students in uniform…
Pretty close in the Catholic schools we send the kids to… unlike the public school, the kids are held accountable for backtalking, late assignments, etc… as one of the parents, I’ve cleaned the school once or twice… always nice when I come in and the principal gives me three or four automatic scuff+mark removers - give’em the ole tennisball and the knee pads and send then down the halls. Usually only need to do that once with the student and I never get them back