Lutheran to Catholic
- Thread starter Adamek
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Without a mutual view of the role of the pope that is consistent with the early Church, I can’t in good conscience become Catholic in communion with the Pope.
Lutheran synods generally fall into two groups: confessional Lutherans hold a quia subscription to the Confessions, meaning they accept the confessions because they are in agreement with scripture.
Other Lutherans hold to a quatenus subscription - “insofar as” they conform with scripture.
In some ways, Confessional Lutherans are closer to Catholicism in doctrine. In other ways, “liberal” Lutherans are.
For example, Confessional Lutherans maintain a male clergy. Liberal Lutherans have moved to return to the apostolic succession through Anglican orders.
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ATraveller
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Some confessional Lutherans in Europe have bishops and apostolic succession and the LCMS is in altar and pulpit fellowship with them. So if they ever wanted to be more Catholic, they have their European counterparts to do it.
That’s true. I guess I should have been more clear about Speaking in general tendencies. Perhaps it wasn’t the best example. The bigger issue is probably female in the clergy.JonNC:
Some confessional Lutherans in Europe have bishops and apostolic succession and the LCMS is in altar and pulpit fellowship with them. So if they ever wanted to be more Catholic, they have their European counterparts to do it.
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Dovekin
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From Conflict to Communion is from the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity, the official dialogue group for the Holy See and the Lutheran World Federation. It was produced 2 years ago for the anniversary of Martin Luther’s theses. It has sections that discuss differences between Lutherans and Catholics.
It does not represent all Lutherans, so some groups may agree with Catholics on some issues and disagree where this group reached agreement. I suppose I should say it does not represent all Catholics, since some Old Catholics and other groups may agree more as well. But most Catholics do recognize the Pope, who sponsors this dialogue.
It does not represent all Lutherans, so some groups may agree with Catholics on some issues and disagree where this group reached agreement. I suppose I should say it does not represent all Catholics, since some Old Catholics and other groups may agree more as well. But most Catholics do recognize the Pope, who sponsors this dialogue.
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Lenten_ashes
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What’s stopping you from becoming Eastern Orthodox?
First, there’s no EO presence nearby.
But that said, your question assumes a greater level of legitimacy of Eastern Orthodoxy, something I don’t agree with.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
This sounds very interesting, would you please clarify? As of now I understand that you are simply saying both EOC and your Lutheran Church are viewed by you as legitimate Christian Churches holding to true faith, and hence there is no need to change your denomination, would that be correct?
Yes, and please don’t misunderstand, I don’t exclude the Catholic Church and Anglicanism and others generally from the category of legitimate Christian traditions.JonNC:
This sounds very interesting, would you please clarify? As of now I understand that you are simply saying both EOC and your Lutheran Church are viewed by you as legitimate Christian Churches holding to true faith, and hence there is no need to change your denomination, would that be correct?
That’s not relativism. I sincerely believe that universal jurisdiction is error, but the Catholic Church retains the marks of Christ’s Church through word and sacrament.
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Yes, I understand. However, what do you think generally constitutes a Church which is “legitimate” as opposed to ones that aren’t? I do not mean to offend you by this question, so feel free to not answer if you feel like that is better. I also do not want to hijack the thread.
Not offended at all.JonNC:
Yes, I understand. However, what do you think generally constitutes a Church which is “legitimate” as opposed to ones that aren’t? I do not mean to offend you by this question, so feel free to not answer if you feel like that is better. I also do not want to hijack the thread.
Personally, I don’t feel I have the authority to make that determination. For me, there is the necessity for word and sacrament. Communions that don’t recognize the means of grace in the sacraments, that don’t accept baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence, are not viable options for me.
Make sense?
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Yes, very much. Thank you for clarification.
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dochawk
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Some claim that.
As understood by the Church, however, all of those groups have a hard break at some point in their history due to their denial (at that time) of the nature of the episcopacy and the nature of orders.
The Church of Sweden (I think; it’s one of the Scandinavian one) makes to simultaneous inconsistent claims of apostolic succession and ordaining women . . .
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ATraveller
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All of the Scandinavian state churches claim apostolic succession and ordain women.
However, the confessional Lutherans are separate bodies from them and don’t ordain women. I don’t recall the specific details but I believe these confessional Lutheran bishops were made bishops by bishops who quit or retired from the state churches or had a Lutheran bishop in Africa who was made bishop by a Scandinavian state church before they started ordaining women.
However, the confessional Lutherans are separate bodies from them and don’t ordain women. I don’t recall the specific details but I believe these confessional Lutheran bishops were made bishops by bishops who quit or retired from the state churches or had a Lutheran bishop in Africa who was made bishop by a Scandinavian state church before they started ordaining women.
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dochawk
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The break, though, was centuries before that, when Lutheran thinking absolutely rejected the very notion of orders as significant, and the special nature of clergy
And a hundred years before that, presbyter ordination was accepted for the Cistercian abbots.
the Lutheran Confessions affirm the value and preference for Apostolic Succession. From The Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
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Sursumcorda1
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These are the kind of comments that made me convert to Catholicism. As Garrison Keiller joked, “It there is one thing that Lutherans learn, it is ‘we are not Catholic’”.
Not of the “Roman” variety, that is true.JonNC:
These are the kind of comments that made me convert to Catholicism. As Garrison Keiller joked, “It there is one thing that Lutherans learn, it is ‘we are not Catholic’”.
If my comment offended, please know it was not my intent. If comments such as mine led you to communion with the Bishop of Rome, and you are blessed by word and sacrament there, I say Amen.
It is my belief that, more so than soteriology, ecclesiology is the basis of the division between Lutherans and Catholics.
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Sursumcorda1
Guest
Why would God want you to believe in a hypothetical catholic group?
Not sure what you’re talking about.
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