Lutheranism

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Try this, Bill, remembering that just as Lutherans should listen to what Catholics say about their faith, so too, Catholics should listen to Lutherans about ours. From there, it seems, fruitful dialogue can grow.

stand-firm.blogspot.com/2012/06/lutheran-view-on-consubstantiation-and.html
From the article: “Just as Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united, so the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body are united (likewise the wine and the blood). This is not a personal union (as that of the two natures of Christ), or a mystical union (as that between Christ and the believer), but a unique and incomprehensible sacramental union; not a natural or spatial combination, mixture, or fusion, but a supernatural union.”

This seems confused. The reason Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united is that they have the same subject, the person of Christ. What is the subject of the unity of the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body (and likewise for the wine and the blood)? If it is Christ, then this is impanation, even if one chooses to call it a sacramental union.

It seems to me that to avoid impanation, one either have to say that it is one form of consubstanbtiation (where the body and blood of Christ is, somehow, given with the bread and wine, but not due to some kind of inseparatable union), or, better, just go with trabsubstantiation.
 
So what is the difference then between the Sola scriptura churches (in your use of the definition) and those that reject the doctrine on any definition?
You would have to ask them. My experience is that most Catholics who reject it, have never been exposed to the proper Lutheran view.
 
I am seeing little difference personally.
Between what? For me to answer, I would need something to compare it to. The view I have been taught, both as a Christian, in my theological education, and in seminary, is the view I presented.
 
I don’t quite understand what Luther’s Burr was. He initiated Sola Scriptura. Why would he do that. That as I see it is a major trip up for Protestants. Of course I am biased here. Wasn’t he seeing some kind of abuses in the church or so he felt anyway?

Bill
Hi, Bill,

Luther’s “burr” was actually a very corrupt Catholic Church at the time. He only presented the 95 Theses at the time to have an Academic and Spiritual debate of what was happening…the Church excommunicated him without taking a look at what he saw and the rest was history. Contrary to what many people think, Luther had no intention of “starting” a new church or breaking away from the Church he loved.

Blessings,

Rita
 
The basic definition of what? Indulgences? Whose would you say was the innovation?
oca.org/questions/romancatholicism/indulgences

Jon
The finger points right back, when staring in a mirror - re “Absolution certificates” (συγχωροχάρτια – synchorochartia):
orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates

A Lutheran view on both: pastelder.blogspot.com/2014/10/reformation-day-and-all-saints-day.html

More here firstthings.com/article/2001/12/the-indulgence-controversy-again:
Despite unclarity in some medieval statements, indulgences have never provided forgiveness, salvation, or justification. They are aids in the struggle with the consequences of sin that forgiveness does not remove, the effects of sin on the self and others that are referred to as “temporal punishments” (whether “punishment” is the most useful category for understanding these effects can be debated). An indulgence is an expression of the solidarity of the wider Church (which includes Christ, Mary, and all the saints) with the person who is willing to undertake special efforts in addressing those effects or temporal punishments. If we truly believe that “the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (James 5:16), then can that solidarity be without result?

So far, so good; and such Protestant theologians as the young Dietrich Bonhoeffer have suggested ideas very similar to these. The ecumenical problem develops with the way this general idea becomes specific in the practice of indulgences. First, this solidarity of the Church with the penitent has come to be understood as an aid the Church can directly administer. As the 1967 Constitution puts it, the Church “intervenes with its authority to dispense to the faithful, provided they have the right dispositions, the treasure of satisfactions which Christ and the saints won for the remission of temporal punishments.” Even if one ignores the question of whether saints win satisfactions, there is still the question of where the Church gets the specific authority to dispense this treasure. If it is the same authority by which the Church forgives sin, then why cannot the priest in confession remit the temporal punishments along with the eternal punishment?

Official documents say less about the source of this authority than most suppose. Rahner suggests that the treasury is not directly “dispensed,” but rather an indulgence is an “authoritative prayer” by the totus Christus ”Christ and his Body, the Church”to the Father, a prayer we can be morally certain will be answered. The 1967 Constitution seemed particularly wary of this approach, but the papal catechesis of September 1999 adopted it. John Paul said that an indulgence is “the expression of the Church’s full confidence of being heard by the Father when”in view of Christ’s merits and, by his gift, those of Our Lady and the saints”she asks him to mitigate or cancel the painful aspect of punishment.”
 
ISTM that, for Luther and the other reformers, they saw practices such as indulgences, and other teachings, as undermining the doctrine of justification.

Jon
Well it all begins with grace. There would be no Justification or sanctification by faith or anything else without grace. CCC 1987 begins I find with an explanation of this. I was wondering Luther’s motives. I was thinking he was unhappy by abuses and some other things. We just don’t have what it takes in us without God. So yes there is faith of course but grace before it.

Bill
 
Try this, Bill, remembering that just as Lutherans should listen to what Catholics say about their faith, so too, Catholics should listen to Lutherans about ours. From there, it seems, fruitful dialogue can grow.

stand-firm.blogspot.com/2012/06/lutheran-view-on-consubstantiation-and.html

Jon
Sure I hear Catholics talk about things that I know something about such as Judaism or Buddhism and completely misjudge things because they do not know something. I heard on ewtn an abbot talking about Buddhism and he said “things are blurred and not clear” maybe to him because he knows nothing about it. It’s very clear. He said it’s not trinitarian. There can be found a trinity there. And “atheistic”. Which means denial of God. Which has never been done in any Buddhist sect. “Non-theistic” makes more sense.
Code:
But back to what you were saying. I have brought up Lutheranism because to me it is the epitome of mainstream protestantism. Which I am trying to understand. Then things really gets confused when you get into groups that are new such as Pentecostalism. Many Christians do not consider it Christianity. Basic Christian doctrine familiar to mainstream Christianity is dumped and re-written when you get out that far. 

Martin Luther being a Catholic Priest to me is protestantism. And what Protestantism should be. But I know nothing about it. So I am listening. But all I know comes from Catholicism so excuse me for that my fellow Christians.
Bill
 
Try this, Bill, remembering that just as Lutherans should listen to what Catholics say about their faith, so too, Catholics should listen to Lutherans about ours. From there, it seems, fruitful dialogue can grow.

stand-firm.blogspot.com/2012/06/lutheran-view-on-consubstantiation-and.html

Jon
Thanks for the link. There is one thing that I am a little confused about. Lutherans give the bread and wine to all? Even those in grace or not? I have always been taught to take the Eucharist without being in grace was sinful. Is my take that Lutherans give the bread and wine to all correct?

Bill
 
From the article: “Just as Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united, so the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body are united (likewise the wine and the blood). This is not a personal union (as that of the two natures of Christ), or a mystical union (as that between Christ and the believer), but a unique and incomprehensible sacramental union; not a natural or spatial combination, mixture, or fusion, but a supernatural union.”

This seems confused. The reason Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united is that they have the same subject, the person of Christ. What is the subject of the unity of the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body (and likewise for the wine and the blood)? If it is Christ, then this is impanation, even if one chooses to call it a sacramental union.

It seems to me that to avoid impanation, one either have to say that it is one form of consubstanbtiation (where the body and blood of Christ is, somehow, given with the bread and wine, but not due to some kind of inseparatable union), or, better, just go with trabsubstantiation.
I usually understand this by Thomas’s Summa Theologica. The “accidents” do not change but the essence of the bread and wine are blood and flesh.

Bill
 
Thanks for the link. There is one thing that I am a little confused about. Lutherans give the bread and wine to all? Even those in grace or not? I have always been taught to take the Eucharist without being in grace was sinful. Is my take that Lutherans give the bread and wine to all correct?

Bill
I am of the Missouri Synod, and we continue to practice close communion.
Lutheranism has historically offered confession/Absolution prior to receiving His true body and blood in the Eucharist. I personally will not do so otherwise.

Keep in mind that we do have a different view of mortal and venial sins, and how private confession is used.

Jon
 
From the article: “Just as Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united, so the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body are united (likewise the wine and the blood). This is not a personal union (as that of the two natures of Christ), or a mystical union (as that between Christ and the believer), but a unique and incomprehensible sacramental union; not a natural or spatial combination, mixture, or fusion, but a supernatural union.”

This seems confused. The reason Christ’s unchanged human and divine natures are inseparably united is that they have the same subject, the person of Christ. **What is the subject of the unity of the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body (and likewise for the wine and the blood)? **If it is Christ, then this is impanation, even if one chooses to call it a sacramental union.

It seems to me that to avoid impanation, one either have to say that it is one form of consubstanbtiation (where the body and blood of Christ is, somehow, given with the bread and wine, but not due to some kind of inseparatable union), or, better, just go with trabsubstantiation.
You miss the point. the writer states that it is NOT a personal union. He says clearly it is supernatural, incomprehensible, inexplicable. If it is these things, then it cannot be explained.
"The difference, over against Wyclif and his theory on remanence is this: For Wyclif, bread and wine remained what they were before; only sacramentally, that is, figuratively, they became the body and blood of Christ.* For Luther, the bread is the body in an incomprehensible way; the union between the bread and the body cannot be expressed in terms of any philosophical theory or rational explanation; it is an object of faith, based solely on the words of Christ. *The question which was put to him, not only by Zwingli, but also by his older adversaries, as to how the bread could be called the body of Christ if it still remained bread, was answered by Luther in pointing out the mode of speech called synecdoche. In his great controversy with Carlstadt he had already explained the words ‘This is my body’ as synecdoche. ‘This’ referred to what Jesus held in his hands, the bread, not (as Carlstadt’s impossible exegesis would suggest) to the body to which Jesus pointed. As a mother, pointing to the cradle in which her baby lies, says, ‘This is my child’, or as a man, pointing to a purse, may say, ‘Here is a hundred dollars’, so we say of the bread in a similar way, “This is the body of Christ’. This is a common mode of speech called synecdoche, an abbreviated speech in which the containing vessel is mentioned instead of its content. The objection, especially by Zwingli, that thus Luther himself did not understand the sacramental words literally, but figuratively, was refuted by Luther as not being to the point, because the reality of the body was not denied. In all other figures of speech, the words ‘body’ and ‘blood’ are understood figuratively; the synecdoche takes the reality of the elements as well as the reality of body and blood seriously.
The Lutheran view, therefore, cannot be put on the same level with the figurative understanding on the one hand, or with transubstantiation on the other hand, as was done by its critics on both sides. Luther was quite clear about the fact that the synecdoche is, also, only an attempt to describe a fact that defies human explanation. The Real Presence remained for him an inexplicable mystery. All his answers are nothing more than attempts to refute the denial of this miracle as something impossible. No human reason can explore how this miracle can take place."
- Hermann Sasse

So, for this Lutheran, I only know what Christ says: “This [bread] is my body”. I do not know how. I do know I receive His true body. Whether or not I receive bread is, quite frankly, irrelevant.

Jon
 
You miss the point. the writer states that it is NOT a personal union. He says clearly it is supernatural, incomprehensible, inexplicable. If it is these things, then it cannot be explained.
"The difference, over against Wyclif and his theory on remanence is this: For Wyclif, bread and wine remained what they were before; only sacramentally, that is, figuratively, they became the body and blood of Christ.* For Luther, the bread is the body in an incomprehensible way; the union between the bread and the body cannot be expressed in terms of any philosophical theory or rational explanation; it is an object of faith, based solely on the words of Christ. ***The question which was put to him, not only by Zwingli, but also by his older adversaries, as to how the bread could be called the body of Christ if it still remained bread, was answered by Luther in pointing out the mode of speech called synecdoche. In his great controversy with Carlstadt he had already explained the words ‘This is my body’ as synecdoche. ‘This’ referred to what Jesus held in his hands, the bread, not (as Carlstadt’s impossible exegesis would suggest) to the body to which Jesus pointed. As a mother, pointing to the cradle in which her baby lies, says, ‘This is my child’, or as a man, pointing to a purse, may say, ‘Here is a hundred dollars’, so we say of the bread in a similar way, “This is the body of Christ’. This is a common mode of speech called synecdoche, an abbreviated speech in which the containing vessel is mentioned instead of its content. The objection, especially by Zwingli, that thus Luther himself did not understand the sacramental words literally, but figuratively, was refuted by Luther as not being to the point, because the reality of the body was not denied. In all other figures of speech, the words ‘body’ and ‘blood’ are understood figuratively; the synecdoche takes the reality of the elements as well as the reality of body and blood seriously.
The Lutheran view, therefore, cannot be put on the same level with the figurative understanding on the one hand, or with transubstantiation on the other hand, as was done by its critics on both sides. Luther was quite clear about the fact that the synecdoche is, also, only an attempt to describe a fact that defies human explanation. The Real Presence remained for him an inexplicable mystery. All his answers are nothing more than attempts to refute the denial of this miracle as something impossible. No human reason can explore how this miracle can take place." - Hermann Sasse

So, for this Lutheran, I only know what Christ says: “This [bread] is my body”. I do not know how. I do know I receive His true body. Whether or not I receive bread is, quite frankly, irrelevant.

Jon
Catholics believe that faith and reason go hand in hand. But I think I understand what you’re saying. Metaphysics can’t explain God truely and I agree. But right now it’s probably the closest we’ve got. Is that what you’re trying to say? Isn’t Aquinas a saint in the Lutheran cannon if there are saints like there is in Anglican and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Bill
 
The finger points right back, when staring in a mirror - re “Absolution certificates” (συγχωροχάρτια – synchorochartia):
orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates

A Lutheran view on both: pastelder.blogspot.com/2014/10/reformation-day-and-all-saints-day.html

More here firstthings.com/article/2001/12/the-indulgence-controversy-again:
Despite unclarity in some medieval statements, indulgences have never provided forgiveness, salvation, or justification. They are aids in the struggle with the consequences of sin that forgiveness does not remove, the effects of sin on the self and others that are referred to as “temporal punishments” (whether “punishment” is the most useful category for understanding these effects can be debated). An indulgence is an expression of the solidarity of the wider Church (which includes Christ, Mary, and all the saints) with the person who is willing to undertake special efforts in addressing those effects or temporal punishments. If we truly believe that “the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (James 5:16), then can that solidarity be without result?

So far, so good; and such Protestant theologians as the young Dietrich Bonhoeffer have suggested ideas very similar to these. The ecumenical problem develops with the way this general idea becomes specific in the practice of indulgences. First, this solidarity of the Church with the penitent has come to be understood as an aid the Church can directly administer. As the 1967 Constitution puts it, the Church “intervenes with its authority to dispense to the faithful, provided they have the right dispositions, the treasure of satisfactions which Christ and the saints won for the remission of temporal punishments.” Even if one ignores the question of whether saints win satisfactions, there is still the question of where the Church gets the specific authority to dispense this treasure. If it is the same authority by which the Church forgives sin, then why cannot the priest in confession remit the temporal punishments along with the eternal punishment?

Official documents say less about the source of this authority than most suppose. Rahner suggests that the treasury is not directly “dispensed,” but rather an indulgence is an “authoritative prayer” by the totus Christus ”Christ and his Body, the Church”to the Father, a prayer we can be morally certain will be answered. The 1967 Constitution seemed particularly wary of this approach, but the papal catechesis of September 1999 adopted it. John Paul said that an indulgence is “the expression of the Church’s full confidence of being heard by the Father when”in view of Christ’s merits and, by his gift, those of Our Lady and the saints”she asks him to mitigate or cancel the painful aspect of punishment.”
Thanks for the links. The First Things link didn’t have the article, but the past elder one is quite interesting.

Jon
 
Catholics believe that faith and reason go hand in hand. But I think I understand what you’re saying. Metaphysics can’t explain God truely and I agree. But right now it’s probably the closest we’ve got. Is that what you’re trying to say? Isn’t Aquinas a saint in the Lutheran cannon if there are saints like there is in Anglican and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Bill
Hi Bill,
What you say is also why I have a hard time outright condemning Transubstantiation.
Aquinas is in the ELCA calendar, but I don’t think in the LCMS calendar (he should be).

Jon
 
Thanks for the link. There is one thing that I am a little confused about. Lutherans give the bread and wine to all? Even those in grace or not? I have always been taught to take the Eucharist without being in grace was sinful. Is my take that Lutherans give the bread and wine to all correct?

Bill
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) has open communion, so anyone can take communion. But the pastor does give general absolution to those present beforehand, saying, “As a called and ordained minister of the church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all of your sins.” But the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod still has closed communion and only members can take communion (or if the pastor gives his permission).
 
You miss the point. the writer states that it is NOT a personal union.
Yes, hence my question: “What is the subject of the unity of the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body (and likewise for the wine and the blood)?”

If there is no subject of the unity, then the analogy fails.
He says clearly it is supernatural, incomprehensible, inexplicable. If it is these things, then it cannot be explained.
The Incarnation is likewise supernatural, incomprehensible, inexplicable, yet we have no problem acknowledging, in the doctrines surrounding it, that for two separate things (the divine nature and the human nature) to be inseparably united, they must have the same subject.

So again my question remains: What is the subject of the unity of the natural bread and Christ’s true natural body (and likewise for the wine and the blood)?
So, for this Lutheran, I only know what Christ says: “This [bread] is my body”. I do not know how. I do know I receive His true body. Whether or not I receive bread is, quite frankly, irrelevant.
But, as I’ve said already: the Incarnation is likewise a mystery. That doesn’t mean we cannot say anything about it. What we can say, is that mystery is not the same as contradiction. If Christ is not the subject of the supposed ‘inseparatable union’ between bread and the body of Christ, and wine and the blood of Christ, what is? How do you avoid impanation?

It seems to me that there are only really four alternatives, if we want to avoid impanation (if we only look at it logically, ‘ignoring’ the Scriptures for a second):


  1. *]The Eucharist is only a pure memorial, where we remember Christ, and what he did for us, in his life, his passion and his resurrection.
    *]The Eucharist gives us some kind of spiritual communion with Christ.
    *]The Eucharist gives us the true and substantial body and blood of Christ, together with bread and wine, but not through som kind of union between these substances.
    ]The Eucharist gives us the true and substantial body and blood of Christ under the species of bread and wine (or their ‘forms,’ to use the language of the German version of Confessio Augustana, art. X).

    Of these four, the fourth is in my opinion the only one that really captures the words of Christ: “this is my body … this is my blood.”
    • In the German text, the word is Gestalt. That is, incidentally, also the German word used, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, to translate the Latin word speciēs.
 
Hi, Bill,

Luther’s “burr” was actually a very corrupt Catholic Church at the time. He only presented the 95 Theses at the time to have an Academic and Spiritual debate of what was happening…the Church excommunicated him without taking a look at what he saw and the rest was history. Contrary to what many people think, Luther had no intention of “starting” a new church or breaking away from the Church he loved.

Blessings,

Rita
No, indeed he didn’t. Bearing in mind that Dr. Luther was a Biblical scholar as well as an Augustinian, once Pope Leo X excommunicated him and his followers, he was released to reform the Church along more Biblical principles. One could say that the Lutheran definition of the True Faith is one where the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed and the Sacraments correctly administered. I maintain that Luther was " excommunicated" by a* Pope*, that he never abandoned his faith. If one would carefully peruse Concordia, one would see that Dr. Luther merely sought a faithful return to the teachings of the Early Church Fathers that were Scripturally based: bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php and he had a few things of his own to say about the corrupt practices that led to his separation from the Church of Rome: bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php. The Counter- Reformation corrected many of these abuses, but would that have happened unless there was a prior Reformation to point out those issues that needed to be addressed?
 
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