Lutherans and Anglicans Becoming One Church?

[gcnuss]

First of all, I applaud any effort to bring Christians together. I believe that our Christian witness to the unchurched world is hampered by the example we set in battling amongst ourselves.

At the same time, I am concerned that instead of a bunch of smaller church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs, we would just have larger church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs. Our witness to the wider world would still suffer.

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to this. I will continue to pray for unity among all Christians as that is what our Lord prayed for. I will rejoice in whatever happens to promote unity, and I will continue to be saddened by those who seek to affirm separation within the Body of Christ.

 

[JonNC]

First of all, I applaud any effort to bring Christians together. I believe that our Christian witness to the unchurched world is hampered by the example we set in battling amongst ourselves.

At the same time, I am concerned that instead of a bunch of smaller church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs, we would just have larger church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs. Our witness to the wider world would still suffer.

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to this. I will continue to pray for unity among all Christians as that is what our Lord prayed for. I will rejoice in whatever happens to promote unity, and I will continue to be saddened by those who seek to affirm separation within the Body of Christ.

As usual, Pastor, you bring a well thought-out response.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

First of all, I applaud any effort to bring Christians together. I believe that our Christian witness to the unchurched world is hampered by the example we set in battling amongst ourselves.

At the same time, I am concerned that instead of a bunch of smaller church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs, we would just have larger church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs. Our witness to the wider world would still suffer.

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to this. I will continue to pray for unity among all Christians as that is what our Lord prayed for. I will rejoice in whatever happens to promote unity, and I will continue to be saddened by those who seek to affirm separation within the Body of Christ.

Unity is wondeful but at what cost ya know? Faith and morals? Doctrine? I certainly understand what you are stating about bringing the Gospel to those in the dark but we must be sure to preach one message rather than many messages under one umbrella.

 

[MaryT777]

First of all, I applaud any effort to bring Christians together. I believe that our Christian witness to the unchurched world is hampered by the example we set in battling amongst ourselves.

At the same time, I am concerned that instead of a bunch of smaller church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs, we would just have larger church bodies standing apart and holding their own beliefs. Our witness to the wider world would still suffer.

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to this. I will continue to pray for unity among all Christians as that is what our Lord prayed for. I will rejoice in whatever happens to promote unity, and I will continue to be saddened by those who seek to affirm separation within the Body of Christ.

Pastor Gary:
Good to “see you again”.
Excellent reply.

 

[MaryT777]

Unity is wondeful but at what cost ya know? Faith and morals? Doctrine? I certainly understand what you are stating about bringing the Gospel to those in the dark but we must be sure to preach one message rather than many messages under one umbrella.

Yes indeed; that’s a major Catholic concern. No compromising doctrine, faith and morals for Catholics for unity.

I agree though that the “in fighting” isn’t good for non Christians but it’s a world limping in sin sadly.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes indeed; that’s a major Catholic concern. No compromising doctrine, faith and morals for Catholics for unity.

I agree though that the “in fighting” isn’t good for non Christians but it’s a world limping in sin sadly.

And the fighting comes from doctrine

 

[JonNC]

Exactly my question as well.

EC you should state which Lutheran synods and what branches on Anglicans are talking. I could be wrong, but I do not see High Church Anglicans joining with the liberal ELCA or the Episcopal Church. Nor do I see LCMS siding with the Episcopal Church either. LCMS pastors cannot even attend prayer vigils as we see from the CT and 9/11 stories.

Is it a liberal/liberal joining or conserv/conserv? Need more information.

Just to clarify the responsibilities of LCMS clergy - our clergy know that they have a responsibility to avoid the appearance unionism and sencretism, particularly in a worship setting. In both of the events you refer to, it seems the Synod over-reacted, and seems to admit doing so.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

I guess it makes sense, really. After all, the ELCA and TEC are already in full communion; so they should have some kind of accountability to each other.

 

[MaryT777]

And the fighting comes from doctrine

Dustin, my poist was not stated well; I’ll just cancel it and not try to reword it.
I agree with you. I believe doctrine regarding faith and morals is non negotiable for false unity.

 

[Peter_J]

Dustin, my poist was not stated well; I’ll just cancel it and not try to reword it.
I agree with you. I believe doctrine regarding faith and morals is non negotiable for false unity.

Well, I won’t quote it if you’ve decided to cancel it. But personally I thought your post made sense.

To put it another way, we’re very strict concerning whom we can be in full communion with; but we’re *not *very strict concerning whom we will not-fight with. (I think many Christians, including the ELCA and TEC, conflate “not fighting” and “full communion”. )

 

[MaryT777]

Well, I won’t quote it if you’ve decided to cancel it. But personally I thought your post made sense.

To put it another way, we’re very strict concerning whom we can be in full communion with; but we’re *not *very strict concerning whom we will not-fight with. (I think many Christians, including the ELCA and TEC, conflate “not fighting” and “full communion”. )

Thanks Peter for wording that so well; that IS what I meant
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks Peter for wording that so well; that IS what I meant
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[gcnuss]

To put it another way, we’re very strict concerning whom we can be in full communion with; but we’re *not *very strict concerning whom we will not-fight with. (I think many Christians, including the ELCA and TEC, conflate “not fighting” and “full communion”. )

I wouldn’t suggest that “not fighting” is the same as “full communion.” However, I would hope that we all would rejoice in the Savior who has come for all of us. And, I would hope that when we have occasion to criticize that it be done in the least abrasive way possible.

 

[Peter_J]

Conflate, not equate.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I wouldn’t suggest that “not fighting” is the same as “full communion.” However, I would hope that we all would rejoice in the Savior who has come for all of us. And, I would hope that when we have occasion to criticize that it be done in the least abrasive way possible.

Alleluia!

 

[hn160]

The TEC and the ELCA deserve each other, both are heterodox Church. Both go against Scripture when it come understanding Scripture and make it bend to their world view, both ordain woman and homosexuals. Both think that the social gospel is more important than the actual Gospel.there is little difference between ELCA Presiding Bishop Hanson and TEC Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Shori.

 

[Peter_J]

To put it another way, we’re very strict concerning whom we can be in full communion with; but we’re *not *very strict concerning whom we will not-fight with. (I think many Christians, including the ELCA and TEC, conflate “not fighting” and “full communion”. )

I wouldn’t suggest that “not fighting” is the same as “full communion.”

Conflate, not equate.

In the interest of full disclosure, I also think that some *Catholics *conflate “not fighting” and “full communion”.

 

[JonNC]

The TEC and the ELCA deserve each other, both are heterodox Church. Both go against Scripture when it come understanding Scripture and make it bend to their world view, both ordain woman and homosexuals. Both think that the social gospel is more important than the actual Gospel.there is little difference between ELCA Presiding Bishop Hanson and TEC Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Shori.

On the other hand, there are orthodox Christians in both communions, some remaining to have a positive impact, to try and change the things that have happened over the last few decades.
Some remain because they are life-long members of a parish, or are members of a very orthodox parish.
We should spend the vast amount of ou discussion of the ELCA and TEC praying for these fellow Christians, and the re-discovery of orthodox teaching within the two communions.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In 1963 European Lutherans studied proposals of full communion with Anglicans. Archbishop of Canterbury received proposal from Lutheran World Federation in 1967. First action was eucharistic hospitality between Church of England and Church of Sweden. Inter-communion of European Anglicans * and Baltic Lutherans.

Theological discussion affirmed mutual celebration of Mass .

anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/lutheran/docs/pullach_report.cfm

**In the Lutheran Communion episcopacy has been preserved in some parts in unbroken succession, in other parts in succession of office, while in other parts oversight has been exercised in non-episcopal forms. In all forms it has experienced the blessings of the ministry in the church.

In the Anglican Communion episcopacy has been preserved in a succession unbroken at the time of the Reformation and, rightly or wrongly, important deductions have been drawn from this in relation to the organic continuity and unity of the church.

Both Communions are open to new forms in which episcope may find expressions appropriate to the needs and conditions of the situation and time.

Both Communions affirm the real presence of Christ in this sacrament, but neither seeks to define precisely how this happens. In the eucharistic action (including consecrations) and reception, the bread and wine, while remaining bread and wine, become the means whereby Christ is truly present and gives himself to the communicants.

Both traditions affirm that Christ’s sacrifice was offered once and for all for the sin of the whole world. Yet without denying this fundamental truth both would recognize that the Eucharist in some sense involves sacrifice. In it we offer our praise and thanksgiving, ourselves and all that we are, and make before God the memorial of Christ’s sacrifice. Christ’s redemptive act becomes present for our participation.

Many Anglicans and some Lutherans believe that in the Eucharist the church’s offering of itself is caught up into his one offering. Other Anglicans and many Lutherans do not employ the concept of sacrifice in this way.***

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In 1963 European Lutherans studied proposals of full communion with Anglicans. Archbishop of Canterbury received proposal from Lutheran World Federation in 1967. First action was eucharistic hospitality between Church of England and Church of Sweden. Inter-communion of European Anglicans * and Baltic Lutherans.

Theological discussion affirmed mutual celebration of Mass .

anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/lutheran/docs/pullach_report.cfm*

**In the Lutheran Communion episcopacy has been preserved in some parts in unbroken succession, in other parts in succession of office, while in other parts oversight has been exercised in non-episcopal forms. In all forms it has experienced the blessings of the ministry in the church.

In the Anglican Communion episcopacy has been preserved in a succession unbroken at the time of the Reformation and, rightly or wrongly, important deductions have been drawn from this in relation to the organic continuity and unity of the church.

Both Communions are open to new forms in which episcope may find expressions appropriate to the needs and conditions of the situation and time.

Both Communions affirm the real presence of Christ in this sacrament, but neither seeks to define precisely how this happens. In the eucharistic action (including consecrations) and reception, the bread and wine, while remaining bread and wine, become the means whereby Christ is truly present and gives himself to the communicants.

Both traditions affirm that Christ’s sacrifice was offered once and for all for the sin of the whole world. Yet without denying this fundamental truth both would recognize that the Eucharist in some sense involves sacrifice. In it we offer our praise and thanksgiving, ourselves and all that we are, and make before God the memorial of Christ’s sacrifice. Christ’s redemptive act becomes present for our participation.

Many Anglicans and some Lutherans believe that in the Eucharist the church’s offering of itself is caught up into his one offering. Other Anglicans and many Lutherans do not employ the concept of sacrifice in this way.**

Forgot

Under full communion each church maintains its own autonomy while fully recognizing the catholicity and apostolicity of the other. In practical terms this means that Anglicans and Lutherans in Canada can share the Eucharist together, use each other’s liturgies, and participate in each other’s ordinations. Anglican and Lutheran clergy may also serve interchangeably in either church.