Lutherans and purgatory

[Jestocost]

My wife recently attended a Via de Cristo (Lutheran Cursillo) weekend at the invitation of a friend. She happened to be there on All Souls day, and she says that they had an all souls service, including prayers for the dead. Wasn’t this one of Luther’s main issues? I know modern Lutherans don’t follow everything he taught, but have they really returned to a Catholic understanding on this issue? I know (at least I think I do) that they still reject the mortal/venial distinction, say all sin is the same. I would think they would go hand in hand. I’m confused.

 

[Steadfast]

My wife recently attended a Via de Cristo (Lutheran Cursillo) weekend at the invitation of a friend. She happened to be there on All Souls day, and she says that they had an all souls service, including prayers for the dead. Wasn’t this one of Luther’s main issues? I know modern Lutherans don’t follow everything he taught, but have they really returned to a Catholic understanding on this issue? I know (at least I think I do) that they still reject the mortal/venial distinction, say all sin is the same. I would think they would go hand in hand. I’m confused.

It would depend.

Traditional Lutheranism does permit a limited kind of prayer for the dead, more or less a consignment of them to the mercy and care of God.

No Lutherans that I know of believe in Purgatory, but we do celebrate All Saints/All Souls with a commemoration of our faithful departed.

In the case of my church, the role is solemnly read of all those among us and our loved ones who have passed away in the last year and prayers are said for their repose.

But no prayer is said for their soon escape from purgatory.

 

[Jestocost]

It would depend.

Traditional Lutheranism does permit a limited kind of prayer for the dead, more or less a consignment of them to the mercy and care of God.

No Lutherans that I know of believe in Purgatory, but we do celebrate All Saints/All Souls with a commemoration of our faithful departed.

In the case of my church, the role is solemnly read of all those among us and our loved ones who have passed away in the last year and** prayers are said for their repose**.

But no prayer is said for their soon escape from purgatory.

I guess that fits with what she told me they did, but I find it even more confusing. What is the purpose of it? If there is no purgatory the dead are either in heaven or hell. Do you believe that those in heaven are in need of comfort, or that those in hell can be prayed into heaven?

 

[Steadfast]

I guess that fits with what she told me they did, but I find it even more confusing. What is the purpose of it? If there is no purgatory the dead are either in heaven or hell. Do you believe that those in heaven are in need of comfort, or that those in hell can be prayed into heaven?

I think, to be as honest as I can be, that it has more to do with the comfort of the bereaved and proper respect for the dead than the expectation of any benefit to the deceased.

 

[Jestocost]

I think, to be as honest as I can be, that it has more to do with the comfort of the bereaved and proper respect for the dead than the expectation of any benefit to the deceased.

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you.

I’m really surprised I never heard of the practice, though. I would think that it would be brought up everytime a Catholic says that Luther dropped the Deuterocannon because Macabees has prayers for the dead.

 

[Steadfast]

You are aware that Luther included the books of the Deuterocanon in his Deutsche Bibel, right?

 

[Jestocost]

You are aware that Luther included the books of the Deuterocanon in his Deutsche Bibel, right?

He argued against them and relegated them to an appendix, but you’re right, that’s not the same as dropping them. It was later reformers who did that. An unfortunate aspect of human nature that we blame the head of an organization or movement for everything that happens within it. Thus Luther gets credited with/blamed for things he never would have supported.

 

[Steadfast]

He argued against them and relegated them to an appendix, but you’re right, that’s not the same as dropping them. It was later reformers who did that. An unfortunate aspect of human nature that we blame the head of an organization or movement for everything that happens within it. Thus Luther gets credited with/blamed for things he never would have supported.

True Dat

 

[angelusm]

My wife recently attended a Via de Cristo (Lutheran Cursillo) weekend at the invitation of a friend. She happened to be there on All Souls day, and she says that they had an all souls service, including prayers for the dead. Wasn’t this one of Luther’s main issues? I know modern Lutherans don’t follow everything he taught, but have they really returned to a Catholic understanding on this issue? I know (at least I think I do) that they still reject the mortal/venial distinction, say all sin is the same. I would think they would go hand in hand. I’m confused.

Praying for the dead makes sense obviously only if purgatory exists. If people are in heaven, they don’t need our prayers, if they are in hell, nothing can help them. If they return to a Catholic understanding of this issue, that’s good. Protestant way of thinking is: do whatever you want, if you don’t like your denomination, you can have your own. There’s no docrtine, every protestant is right. The result of reformation is a total chaos.

 

[Steadfast]

Praying for the dead makes sense obviously only if purgatory exists. If people are in heaven, they don’t need our prayers, if they are in hell, nothing can help them. If they return to a Catholic understanding of this issue, that’s good. Protestant way of thinking is: do whatever you want, if you don’t like your denomination, you can have your own. There’s no docrtine, every protestant is right. The result of reformation is a total chaos.

Provocative bull ****.

 

[ralphinal]

Praying for the dead makes sense obviously only if purgatory exists. If people are in heaven, they don’t need our prayers, if they are in hell, nothing can help them. If they return to a Catholic understanding of this issue, that’s good. Protestant way of thinking is: do whatever you want, if you don’t like your denomination, you can have your own. There’s no docrtine, every protestant is right. The result of reformation is a total chaos.

I disagree somewhat. If you believe that God is outside of time and sees the end from the beginning, then if I pray today for someone who died in the past, how can I be sure that my prayers may not get him just a little more grace to make it home? I had an aunt who had four sons go to WWII. She prayed every day that they come home safe and sound, and after they did, she prayed a prayer of thanksgiving every day for the rest of her life. Can we say that God knew of her prayers before and after? If so, can the same not be done for the dead.

I do agree that this leads to some very Catholic thinking, after all, I am Catholic.

 

[Contarini]

Praying for the dead makes sense obviously only if purgatory exists.

Tell that to the Orthodox!

If people are in heaven, they don’t need our prayers, if they are in hell, nothing can help them.

Well, the Orthodox would disagree, I think. As I understand it, they believe that prayer for the dead can (during a brief window after death) affect the person’s eternal destiny. But I may be misunderstanding, or confusing a folk belief with formal teaching. It is also possible that prayer might work backwards in time, or that it may simply alleviate the sufferings of the damned or increase the joy of the blessed. We simply don’t know. We don’t know how prayer works, period. All intercessory (or petitionary) prayer commends people to God’s mercy and leaves them there–prayer for the dead is no different. God’s will is not a machine into which you insert prayers like coins and get back certain results.

Edwin