Lutherans and Reformed Christians worshipping together?!

[Esdra]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that in my home country, Austria, the Lutherans and the Reformed Christians (Calvinists/Zwingliists) worship together in one and the same Churches.
Both are of course minority Churches.

I’ve always thought that differ quite a lot in theology?

In this thread I’d like to discuss the major differnces between the Lutherans and the Reformed.

I even can’t start at this point because I know practically nothing about the differences between these two.

For the Americans here: Reformed Christians are for example Presbyterians! (By the way: I’ve found out yesterday that beside the bigger Reformed Evangelical Church in Austria there is also a smaller Presbyterian Church! I was really astonished. According to their homepage, they use the “Heidelberg Catechism”)

Esdra

 

[JonNC]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that in my home country, Austria, the Lutherans and the Reformed Christians (Calvinists/Zwingliists) worship together in one and the same Churches.
Both are of course minority Churches.

I’ve always thought that differ quite a lot in theology?

In this thread I’d like to discuss the major differnces between the Lutherans and the Reformed.

I even can’t start at this point because I know practically nothing about the differences between these two.

Esdra

As a start, we have a major disagreement regarding the Calvinist TULIP.
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

And Presbyterians
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2241

The Lutheran teaching of the real presence is also different than Calvinist teaching regarding the Lord’s Supper.

For the Americans here: Reformed Christians are for example Presbyterians! (By the way: I’ve found out yesterday that beside the bigger Reformed Evangelical Church in Austria there is also a smaller Presbyterian Church! I was really astonished. According to their homepage, they use the “Heidelberg Catechism”)

There are also confessional Lutheran Churches in Germany and Austria that have not merged with the Reformed Churches.

As for worshipping together, I have no problem with “hearing the word” together, or even in generally praying together. I would not commune in a Reformed Church under any circumstances.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

As a start, we have a major disagreement regarding the Calvinist TULIP.
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2242

And Presbyterians
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2241

The Lutheran teaching of the real presence is also different than Calvinist teaching regarding the Lord’s Supper.

Hi,

yes I see. I knew that there are major differences, not only from theology, as you have mentioned above; but also the forms of worship are different.

There are also confessional Lutheran Churches in Germany and Austria that have not merged with the Reformed Churches.

As for worshipping together, I have no problem with “hearing the word” together, or even in generally praying together. I would not commune in a Reformed Church under any circumstances.

Jon

Concerning Germany, I don’t know. 'Though that’s very likely, as there are Lutheran “regional Churches”.

Concerning Austria I am pretty sure that Lutherans ALWAYS are in mixed Churches with Reformed Christians (in Austria they are called Evangelical Church Helvetican Confession [H.C.]).

However there are also some very few Presbyterians (Evangelical-reformed Church Westminster Confession) that are completely independent and are never mixed with Lutherans in Churches. They are also not to be found in the Evangelical Church of Austria where H.C. and A.C. (=Augsburg Confession) are organised together.

I have already written an email to the Evangelical Church H.C. concerning this issue, but so for I haven’t got an answer…

But I guess here in Austria most Evangelical Churches (even if they are mixed) follow the Augsburg Confession concerning teaching and worship style. - I don’t know how the Reformed Christians cope with that…
But maybe someone from a Reformed Church may answer here, then we’ll know.

Esdra

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7356902]
Concerning Germany, I don’t know. 'Though that’s very likely, as there are Lutheran “regional Churches”.

There is in Germany the SELK
selk.de/index.php?view=article&catid=51%3Ainformation-in-english&id=27%3Awhat-we-believe&option=com_content&Itemid=33

Concerning Austria I am pretty sure that Lutherans ALWAYS are in mixed Churches with Reformed Christians (in Austria they are called Evangelical Church Helvetican Confession [H.C.]).

this surprised me, as I assumed there would be confessional Lutheran Churches in Austria, as well, and in addition to the “union” churches you mentioned.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

There is in Germany the SELK
selk.de/index.php?view=article&catid=51%3Ainformation-in-english&id=27%3Awhat-we-believe&option=com_content&Itemid=33

this surprised me, as I assumed there would be confessional Lutheran Churches in Austria, as well, and in addition to the “union” churches you mentioned.

Jon

As far as I got to know that, there are Churches with mainly Lutherans, but there are always some Reformed Christians in them, as, as I have written previously, the Evangelical Churches in general are diaspora Churches (only 4% of the population in Austria are either Lutheran or Reformed!) in Austria. Note: Without the Evangelical-reformed Church W.C. (Presbyterians)!

According to evang.at there are 9 H.C. Evangelical Churches. (Where there are no Lutherans in, I suppose; or at least very few; Although the mentioned ones have on their homepages as well “Evangelical Churche A.C. and H.C.”, like the Evangelical Church H.B. in Bregenz.

Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that in my home country, Austria, the Lutherans and the Reformed Christians (Calvinists/Zwingliists) worship together in one and the same Churches.
Both are of course minority Churches.

Esdra

JL: Is it possible they are only sharing the same building in which to worship?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m reading Diarmaid MacCulloch’s “The Reformation,” which is THE greatest book ever written on the Reformation with tons of intellectual honesty, neutrality, and with amazing scholarship. It’s so fascinating watching how HUGE the divide truly was between Geneva and the German Lutheran states. Lutheranism diverged so greatly from Reformed Christianity not only in the Eucharist but in polity, liturgy, and as Jon pointed out, TULIP Calvinist theology. Lutherans truly are very close to Catholicism when compared to Calvinists.

I think there is a trend for several Protestant groups to “caucus” with each other out of a misplaced desire for ecumenism and I find it disturbing and odd. These are strange bedfellows indeed. I agree with Jon’s post.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I’m reading Diarmaid MacCulloch’s “The Reformation,” which is THE greatest book ever written on the Reformation with tons of intellectual honesty, neutrality, and with amazing scholarship. It’s so fascinating watching how HUGE the divide truly was between Geneva and the German Lutheran states. Lutheranism diverged so greatly from Reformed Christianity not only in the Eucharist but in polity, liturgy, and as Jon pointed out, TULIP Calvinist theology. Lutherans truly are very close to Catholicism when compared to Calvinists.

I think there is a trend for several Protestant groups to “caucus” with each other out of a misplaced desire for ecumenism and I find it disturbing and odd. These are strange bedfellows indeed. I agree with Jon’s post.

There’s a whole political history that goes with this, at least in eastern Germany:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Union_%28Evangelical_Christian_Church%29

So it’s not all due to the more recent ecumenical movement.

My understanding is that many German Lutherans emigrated to the US in order to avoid participating in this merger.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t follow. Please elaborate, Dave…

There’s a whole political history that goes with this, at least in eastern Germany:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Union_%28Evangelical_Christian_Church%29

So it’s not all due to the more recent ecumenical movement.

My understanding is that many German Lutherans emigrated to the US in order to avoid participating in this merger.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I don’t follow. Please elaborate, Dave…

In the early 19th century, the Prussian King thought it would be a good idea to simply merge the Reformed and Lutheran churches into one “united” church (basically so he could be in control of both and reduce conflict between the two.) So, it was “ecumenism” by royal decree. Many Germans who couldn’t stomach such an idea emigrated to the United States. Many of the churches that these immigrants founded in the U.S. eventually came under the umbrella of the Missouri Synod or LCMS, if I understand that part of the history correctly.

Some groups from the Prussian Union church ALSO emigrated to the US, forming what was commonly referred to as the “E&R” Church (Evangelical and Reformed). This group was eventually merged into the United Church of Christ (UCC) in the US.

So if you go to Eastern Germany today you can find towns that have a both a Lutheran Church and a “United” Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, Dave! I thought you were talking about a whole different animal. Sorry.

In the early 19th century, the Prussian King thought it would be a good idea to simply merge the Reformed and Lutheran churches into one “united” church (basically so he could be in control of both and reduce conflict between the two.) So, it was “ecumenism” by royal decree. Many Germans who couldn’t stomach such an idea emigrated to the United States. Many of the churches that these immigrants founded in the U.S. eventually came under the umbrella of the Missouri Synod or LCMS, if I understand that part of the history correctly.

Some groups from the Prussian Union church ALSO emigrated to the US, forming what was commonly referred to as the “E&R” Church (Evangelical and Reformed). This group was eventually merged into the United Church of Christ (UCC) in the US.

So if you go to Eastern Germany today you can find towns that have a both a Lutheran Church and a “United” Church.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

In areas where Protestants are in a minority, the only way to worship as a community is to lay aside doctrinal differences. My younger daughter was part of a chamber choir that included the Protestant church in Bruges, Belgium. It was very small and I doubt there were 100 worshipers on the Sunday the choir sang there.

A friend was in eastern Russia before the fall of communism. He was led down back alleys and in one door and out another to attend an underground Christian service. He returned some years later to find the Catholics at odds with the Orthodox and the Evangelicals disagreeing with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. All these people had been united under persecution, but with freedom came dissension.

 

[Esdra]

In areas where Protestants are in a minority, the only way to worship as a community is to lay aside doctrinal differences. My younger daughter was part of a chamber choir that included the Protestant church in Bruges, Belgium. It was very small and I doubt there were 100 worshipers on the Sunday the choir sang there.

Yes, and I guess this is the reason why there are mainly mixed Churches (Lutheran and Reformed) in Austria, as they are really minority Churches (both of them.)
However, I was wondering how this could be since theology differs a lot between these two groups and even worship style…
But I guess they hav layed aside their doctrinal differences, as you have stated correctly.

A friend was in eastern Russia before the fall of communism. He was led down back alleys and in one door and out another to attend an underground Christian service. He returned some years later to find the Catholics at odds with the Orthodox and the Evangelicals disagreeing with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. All these people had been united under persecution, but with freedom came dissension.

Yes, I guess this is always the case: if their is war or persecution Churches do realize that they have a common basis - Christ - and they work together then.
But in peace time then… Well.

Esdra