Lutherans and the Papacy

[ufamtobie]

Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3

EvangelCatholic,

It is good to hear that you are not alone among Lutherans and view the Vatican as your Spiritual Home, but it should be the Lutherans Physical home as well. You Choose to be as you say “cousins”, choosing to be outside looking in, Wishing this, wishing that, wishing the Catholic Church to conform to your wants, your beliefs, before I come back Home, But this won’t ever happen.

When a son runs away from home, because he does not want to believe that his father has the final authority in his home, how dare he ask his Father to conform to his wants/wishes before his coming back home.

The Holy Spirit that governs the Catholic Church does not conform to mans wants and wishes, God does not work that way.

Re: Infallibility, Jesus Left His Church to govern us, reprimand us, and by the Sacrament of the Confessional forgive us. This Church must have infallibility in it’s teachings to do so, or do you think Jesus Christ established a weak Church. Now the Pope can not command any Catholic to jump of a building now that is Wrong and not of God. But The Pope is infallible when it comes only through the teachings of the Catholic Church

Evangelicatholic, Tell me, if you are a Christian don’t you want to be in a church that has infallibility? I sure DO, and am, through the Grace of God, and so should you any any Christian. Amen!

Ufam Tobie

 

[joe371]

Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3

Infallible simply stated, means that the church is protected from within and without, from teaching erroneously. Do you agree with that premise, and that it is true? If so then God is in fact guiding His church into all truth, as per John 16, and therefore I don’t see why it should be revised. I suppose they could insist that they don’t teach infallibly i.e. could possibly be wrong about the codification of the Trinitarian dogma or the codification of the holy Bible.

My nieces Lutheran Pastor believes that he teaches truth as opposed to teaching erroneously i.e. he claims to teach infallibly. Shouldn’t we hope that God is preserving and transmitting doctrinal truth via His church until Jesus’ return, so that every generation is privy to what the early church knew?

 

[joe371]

But with all due respect, our pope at the time was quite corrupt.

Sadly, corruption seems almost inevitable. It started with one of the chosen apostles. If corruption prevented the promulgation of truth via the ineffable guidance of God then the church could be guilty of teaching erroneously in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, which would mean that even the books found in the bible should be questioned, in terms of authenticity. Do you accept the fact that CC made infallible decisions about things like Theotokos, the Trinity, the Hypostatic union etc.? They were all declared wrong by other Christians belonging to the CC at the time, e.g. Nestorius and Arius. The Trinity is still rejected by some churches. Gosh, I sure hope the CC teaches infallibly via God’s guidance and protection.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, Lutherans are very cordial, and friendly with Catholics. They do not promote the lies of Anti-Catholicism. That usually happens with the evangelicals.

“How to be contoversial”

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic,

It is good to hear that you are not alone among Lutherans and view the Vatican as your Spiritual Home, but it should be the Lutherans Physical home as well. You Choose to be as you say “cousins”, choosing to be outside looking in, Wishing this, wishing that, wishing the Catholic Church to conform to your wants, your beliefs, before I come back Home, But this won’t ever happen.

When a son runs away from home, because he does not want to believe that his father has the final authority in his home, how dare he ask his Father to conform to his wants/wishes before his coming back home.

The Holy Spirit that governs the Catholic Church does not conform to mans wants and wishes, God does not work that way.

Re: Infallibility, Jesus Left His Church to govern us, reprimand us, and by the Sacrament of the Confessional forgive us. This Church must have infallibility in it’s teachings to do so, or do you think Jesus Christ established a weak Church. Now the Pope can not command any Catholic to jump of a building now that is Wrong and not of God. But The Pope is infallible when it comes only through the teachings of the Catholic Church

Evangelicatholic, Tell me, if you are a Christian don’t you want to be in a church that has infallibility? I sure DO, and am, through the Grace of God, and so should you any any Christian. Amen!

Ufam Tobie

Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman Catholic church.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[ajecphotos]

Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman Catholic church.

Thank you for your kind words.

That is good to see

 

[marimagi]

Sadly, corruption seems almost inevitable. It started with one of the chosen apostles. If corruption prevented the promulgation of truth via the ineffable guidance of God then the church could be guilty of teaching erroneously in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, which would mean that even the books found in the bible should be questioned, in terms of authenticity. Do you accept the fact that CC made infallible decisions about things like Theotokos, the Trinity, the Hypostatic union etc.? They were all declared wrong by other Christians belonging to the CC at the time, e.g. Nestorius and Arius. The Trinity is still rejected by some churches. Gosh, I sure hope the CC teaches infallibly via God’s guidance and protection.

Look up the Medici family of popes. They were a scandalous lot. The recent scandals among some of our clergy which has caused so much pain and many to leave the Church. was not even comparable to the widespread abuses in Rome itself.during Luther’s time. These men did not resemble men of God in the least, and the rebellion that followed would not have been possible if their behaviors had not made it so. That is why the Church finally codified the concept of infallibility in matters of Faith, in later documents. There was no way that the Church could justify the bad actions of these popes as men.

In recent decades, we have had some marvelous popes who are worthy of respect. But in Luther’s day, that was not the case. And while the image of the prodigal son is a beautiful and significant one in cases where the son returns to a just and honorable father, Luther and his followers in fact ran from one who was abusive. Abuse in a family (even the family of Christianity,) takes a long time to heal. As Catholics, we cannot defend some of the acts of our Church or our leaders in history, who behaved in a manner that is truly indefensable.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Look up the Medici family of popes. They were a scandalous lot. The recent scandals among some of our clergy which has caused so much pain and many to leave the Church. was not even comparable to the widespread abuses in Rome itself.during Luther’s time. These men did not resemble men of God in the least, and the rebellion that followed would not have been possible if their behaviors had not made it so. That is why the Church finally codified the concept of infallibility in matters of Faith, in later documents. There was no way that the Church could justify the bad actions of these popes as men.

In recent decades, we have had some marvelous popes who are worthy of respect. But in Luther’s day, that was not the case. And while the image of the prodigal son is a beautiful and significant one in cases where the son returns to a just and honorable father, Luther and his followers in fact ran from one who was abusive. Abuse in a family (even the family of Christianity,) takes a long time to heal. As Catholics, we cannot defend some of the acts of our Church or our leaders in history, who behaved in a manner that is truly indefensable.

Music to the ears!

 

[mlz]

Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman

What??! You have the Eucharist in a Catholic Mass??? You aren’t suppose to, nor are Catholics suppose to have communion at non Catholic parishes… I don’t understand this.

mlz

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic;10874180:

Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman

What??! You have the Eucharist in a Catholic Mass??? You aren’t suppose to, nor are Catholics suppose to have communion at non Catholic parishes… I don’t understand this.

mlz

Blood is thicker than wine!

 

[joe371]

Look up the Medici family of popes. They were a scandalous lot. The recent scandals among some of our clergy which has caused so much pain and many to leave the Church. was not even comparable to the widespread abuses in Rome itself.during Luther’s time. These men did not resemble men of God in the least, and the rebellion that followed would not have been possible if their behaviors had not made it so. That is why the Church finally codified the concept of infallibility in matters of Faith, in later documents. There was no way that the Church could justify the bad actions of these popes as men.

In recent decades, we have had some marvelous popes who are worthy of respect. But in Luther’s day, that was not the case. And while the image of the prodigal son is a beautiful and significant one in cases where the son returns to a just and honorable father, Luther and his followers in fact ran from one who was abusive. Abuse in a family (even the family of Christianity,) takes a long time to heal. As Catholics, we cannot defend some of the acts of our Church or our leaders in history, who behaved in a manner that is truly indefensable.

:yup: Jesus even predicted that there would be scandals:

“And he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones.” Luke 17:1

I am sure the evil one is behind said scandals, working tirelessly to destroy Jesus’ Church from within.

 

[ajecphotos]

EvangelCatholic;10874180:

Ufam, my brother/ sister. I have close ties with Roman Catholics among family [daughter in laws] and friends. Whenever there is a Baptism, 1st Communion, weddings/ burials we worship as a family and take holy communion together no matter if it is a Lutheran or Catholic parish. Some view Lutherans as “professing catholics” in the Roman

What??! You have the Eucharist in a Catholic Mass??? You aren’t suppose to, nor are Catholics suppose to have communion at non Catholic parishes… I don’t understand this.

mlz

Fences being put up I guess. Don’t see the harm myself.

 

[Peter_J]

What??! You have the Eucharist in a Catholic Mass??? You aren’t suppose to, nor are Catholics suppose to have communion at non Catholic parishes… I don’t understand this.

mlz

So … you don’t understand that people don’t always do what they are supposed to?(?)

BTW, it isn’t only Catholics that don’t always follow rules. Orthodox too … for example, Orthodox aren’t supposed to take communion in Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, etc churches, but that doesn’t mean it never happens.

 

[ajecphotos]

So … you don’t understand that people don’t always do what they are supposed to?(?)

BTW, it isn’t only Catholics that don’t always follow rules. Orthodox too … for example, Orthodox aren’t supposed to take communion in Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, etc churches, but that doesn’t mean it never happens.

A friend of mine is Anglican and often comes to my church for adoration etc.

Aren’t we supposed to be one big family in God?

 

[Steveabrous]

Papal infallibilty was a belief all along. However, the Church did need to deal with the problem of popes whose behaviors were indefensible. And so, it was defined that a pope as a person, could be fallible; even corrupt. But in matters of Faith, no pope had ever erred.

The problems in the Church at the time of Luther were indeed widespread throughout Europe and were not addressed during Luther’s time by a long shot.

Luther objected to the abuses in the Church at the time, which were indead, severe. Paying for indulgences, was practically a shake-down in today’s terms. Luther really loved the Church, and never intended when challenging the corrupt practices, to eventually break-away from the Catholic Church.

I understand why Luther protested what he did. I understand why he ultimately started a movement. He could have not done so either, if people were not fed up.

Our popes in the modern era, are nothing like the popes which unfortunately took power during Luther’s time. The Church does not deny the facts of history, and admits that it was a very unfortunate reality. I guess to answer your question, if I lived in Luther’s time, I would have been quite disturbed by the Catholic Church’s actions, and may have wanted to break away from the corruption of the time if given the chance.

I agree there was corruption in Luther’s time and Luther did want to change the church, not leave it. However, Luther wanted to change doctrine. He wanted to get rid of all authority and have scripture alone be the authority. His differences were, also, theological.

 

[Peter_J]

A friend of mine is Anglican and often comes to my church for adoration etc.

Aren’t we supposed to be one big family in God?

Yes we are. Families have rules … Orthodox rules say that Orthodox are not to receive communion at a Catholic or protestant church, Catholic rules say that Catholics are not to receive communion at a protestant church.

 

[JonNC]

I agree there was corruption in Luther’s time and Luther did want to change the church, not leave it. However, Luther wanted to change doctrine. He wanted to get rid of all authority and have scripture alone be the authority. His differences were, also, theological.

I think the reliance on scripture, due to what he saw as the contradictions in councils and popes, was not part of his initial challenge (95 theses).

Jon

 

[Steveabrous]

I think the reliance on scripture, due to what he saw as the contradictions in councils and popes, was not part of his initial challenge (95 theses).

Jon

My point is Luther may have started out offended by the corruption. But he left due to doctinal differences. I see no contradiction in council and Popes with scripture. Perhaps they would contradict some peoples interpretation of scripture but that’s the whole point to Popes and councils isn’t it.

Luther upset over corruption does not explain him
-throwing out parts of the bible
-denying Purgatory
-sola fida
-sola scriptura

• saying everyone can read the bible for themselves and come to the truth. Which is wrong as evident with the wide range of denominations, and warned against in scripture.

 

[steido01]

I do not mean to take us too far off of the original post, but I must address some of the assertions below…

Luther upset over corruption does not explain him
-throwing out parts of the bible

This is false. The Lutheran Confessions never defined a cannon. There is current thread on this topic, and many others have mentioned it.

-denying Purgatory

Orthodoxy does not understand/accept purgatory in the sense that Rome does - are they in error? Even Rome has softened its view on purgatory in recent years, with some theologians tending to describe it more as a ‘process’ than a ‘place.’ This is not unlike some high-church Lutherans. In any case, Luther took issue with the abuse of indulgences against the poor - abuses that were based on a purgatory from which one could finance their way out.

-sola fida

This has always been a catholic idea. Keep in mind that Sola Fide does not mean that works are disregarded - only that they cannot be separated from saving faith (like heat and light from a fire). Many Catholics have been open to this concept; Ambrose and Ratzinger were particularly sensitive to it, if not fond of it.

-sola scriptura

Shouldn’t all the decisions of the church and her councils be based on the Word? Sola Scriptura means that the rulings of men, however moved by the Spirit they may perceive themselves to be, must remain in accordance with Scripture. Would you disagree?

• saying everyone can read the bible for themselves and come to the truth. Which is wrong as evident with the wide range of denominations, and warned against in scripture.

I think having the Bible available to us laypersons in the vernacular is a tremendous gift, don’t you? Scripture can be wrongly interpreted (indeed, it’s happened since the founding of His church), but pretending that Luther was the man responsible for all divisions in the church is giving far too much credit to a humble German monk. Division is a terrible thing, and we Lutherans have recognized that since our beginnings: “To dissent from the agreement of so many nations and to be called schismatics is a grave matter. But divine authority commands all not to be allies and defenders of impiety and unjust cruelty.” - The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope

 

[Peter_J]

The Lutheran Confessions never defined a cannon.

I don’t know … those were pretty violent times.