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EvangelCatholic
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Does everyone in the assembly of worship have to believe in the Real Presence to make it valid? Admittedly, I have only participated in one joint Lutheran-Reformed [Presbyterian] Eucharist and the celebrant was Lutheran. ELCA open communion is specified that one must be baptized and believe in the Real Presence or, at least understand that Lutherans believe in the RP. As others have mentioned, we cannot assume all coming to the altar rail fully understand the mystical presence of Christ, that in the timelessness of the Upper Room at the Last Supper we join the holy apostles in the very Body and Blood of Christ, a taste of heaven.
“Lord, I am not worthy / that you should enter under my roof, / but only say the word / and my soul shall be healed.”
Exposing other Christians to the historic liturgy of the Church can make a profound impact. I once participated in a discussion with Methodists, Episcopalians and Lutherans on the Mass; the common ground of our faith is infinitely more important than minor differences.
Father Berthold von Schenk, wrote the book, ‘The Presence’ [alpb.org/presence.html]](http://alpb.org/presence.html]) in the 1940’s. He was the pastor of Our Saviour’s Church [LCMS] in the Bronx. In the 1970’s, I among other seminarians, met his son who became pastor of the parish after his father retired. Von Schenk believed that Zwingli was misunderstood by Luther and that a common approach to the Eucharist could have happened.
We must seek unity.
“Lord, I am not worthy / that you should enter under my roof, / but only say the word / and my soul shall be healed.”
Exposing other Christians to the historic liturgy of the Church can make a profound impact. I once participated in a discussion with Methodists, Episcopalians and Lutherans on the Mass; the common ground of our faith is infinitely more important than minor differences.
Father Berthold von Schenk, wrote the book, ‘The Presence’ [alpb.org/presence.html]](http://alpb.org/presence.html]) in the 1940’s. He was the pastor of Our Saviour’s Church [LCMS] in the Bronx. In the 1970’s, I among other seminarians, met his son who became pastor of the parish after his father retired. Von Schenk believed that Zwingli was misunderstood by Luther and that a common approach to the Eucharist could have happened.
We must seek unity.
Nice post, EC. I don’t know if Luther misunderstood Zwingli or not, but Luther’s point is clear - “Ist ist ist.”
On your first point; no one in the assembly has to believe. His presence is the result of the power of the Holy Spirit, and the speaking of the verba.
Jon
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Peter_J
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Yes, that’s a major issue with inter-communion. Take, for example, Catholics and Anglicans. Surely it isn’t our place as Catholics to [further] partition Anglicans into “Anglicans who believe in the real presence” and “Anglicans who do not believe in the real presence”; but at the same time we aren’t about to indiscriminately admit Anglicans to holy communion when RP isn’t a uniform teaching of Anglicanism. In short, the only reasonable alternative is to limit intercommunion to the rare “special circumstances” case.
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Peter_J
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Personally, a significant red flag for me is when someone assumes that people confuse infallibility with impeccability.
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aidanbradypop
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To what degree? “We can have unity is all Lutherans stop protesting and convert to Catholicism.” Ever hear that one? Or…“We can have unity if Catholics would admit the Reformation was a good thing that needed to be done to clean up the corrupt Church.”
If both sides are going to come together, who gives in? Sure not the Catholic Church. If the Church gave in, I would soon be sitting in a Eastern Orthodox parish.
One cannot divide so drastically and then ask to gain unity.
Fargonian Lutherans are not really pro pope. Kind of more like anti pope and could careless really. They must feed Lutherans something different where you live. lol
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Peter_J
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True. Because if we were going to ‘give in’ to anyone, it would be the Orthodox, not the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists etc.
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Stilldreamn
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When talking to family members that are life-long Lutherans (of the Fargo varietyFargonian Lutherans are not really pro pope. Kind of more like anti pope and could careless really. They must feed Lutherans something different where you live. lol
) I find that much of the resistance to the Roman Catholic Church stems from a clinging to the “religious abuse” narratives from the 15th century. I have been in my own sort of ecumenical dialogue to demonstrate the many points of agreement there really are. I know this is working, because my mom was bemused when a friend from her church told her she “sounded like a Catholic.” I told her that was a compliment, because it also meant she was sounding more like an orthodox Lutheran, too.
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EvangelCatholic
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Then what you are saying is that the Pope and Roman Church is/ are infallible. I mentioned this on another post that there is much discussion [mostly behind doors, such as when Benedict met with Lutheran leaders in Germany] that Martin Luther will be proclaimed not excommunicated. The Lutheran Bishop of Jordan has been working with the Vatican to explore intercommunion at events celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.To what degree? “We can have unity is all Lutherans stop protesting and convert to Catholicism.” Ever hear that one? Or…“We can have unity if Catholics would admit the Reformation was a good thing that needed to be done to clean up the corrupt Church.”
If both sides are going to come together, who gives in? Sure not the Catholic Church. If the Church gave in, I would soon be sitting in a Eastern Orthodox parish.
One cannot divide so drastically and then ask to gain unity.
Fargonian Lutherans are not really pro pope. Kind of more like anti pope and could careless really. They must feed Lutherans something different where you live. lol
There is something much greater than pride and that is the love of Christ.
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aidanbradypop
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Anything against Luther would have been finshed at his death. It is up to God after that. Of course the Church is infallible and the Pope when speaking on matters of morals and faith.
No offense but I will not be celebrating the anniversary of the reformation lol
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Peter_J
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I would imagine that aidanbradypop said that at some point, but I don’t see it in the post you quoted.
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EvangelCatholic
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I would imagine that aidanbradypop said that at some point, but I don’t see it in the post you quoted.
Yes, there are Lutherans who instinctively and perhaps irrationally make statements about the Roman Catholic Church that don’t reflect the ecumenical dialogs over the past 50 years. I am supposed to be at work
and must get back to other matters but later this evening will share links related to the subject of Martin Luther and the mutual [Catholic and Lutherans] 500th anniversary.
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benjohnson
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Nor will I!No offense but I will not be celebrating the anniversary of the reformation lol
My church is in dialog with the local Catholic church and we’re hoping to do something appropriate together that stresses our desire for unity. We won’t be celebrating our lamentable division.
This is the appropriate approach.
Jon
EDIT: Unless,of course, the Holy Spirit brings about a major breakthrough between our communions.
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Peter_J
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:bighanky: So you won’t be coming to my big Excommunication Day party? (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
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gcnuss
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I’m sort of looking forward to the 500th anniversary of the Reformation for the opportunities it will present for Lutherans and Catholics (and anyone else who wants to join in) to contemplate all that has happened over the last five centuries and to learn from our experiences and those of our forebears.
The most important thing IMHO is that we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ. That means that mutual vilification is, and should remain, an unfortunate relic of the past. We can’t ignore what has happened but we need not perpetuate it.
I won’t ask my Catholic brothers and sisters to celebrate with me and, in fact, I probably won’t celebrate so much as I will reflect on the poor witness that a divided Christendom presents to the non-Christian world. I will celebrate any step, no matter how small, that leads us toward reunion. I regret that I am not likely to see it in my lifetime but I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will lead our two traditions back together.
The most important thing IMHO is that we are truly brothers and sisters in Christ. That means that mutual vilification is, and should remain, an unfortunate relic of the past. We can’t ignore what has happened but we need not perpetuate it.
I won’t ask my Catholic brothers and sisters to celebrate with me and, in fact, I probably won’t celebrate so much as I will reflect on the poor witness that a divided Christendom presents to the non-Christian world. I will celebrate any step, no matter how small, that leads us toward reunion. I regret that I am not likely to see it in my lifetime but I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will lead our two traditions back together.
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aidanbradypop
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Yeah it is not something any of us should celebrate. I am wondering if the Fargonian Lutherans will have a parade.
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benjohnson
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EvangelCatholic
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Lutherans do celebrate the Reformation; it is a holy day on the Church calendar [October 31] the day before All Saints’ Day. Generally it is to honor Martin Luther; also commemorated on Feb 18 as a renewer of the Church.Yeah it is not something any of us should celebrate. I am wondering if the Fargonian Lutherans will have a parade.
But the celebration being planned 2017 is not a focus on division but recognition of our mutual catholic faith.
In 2010, the head of the Lutheran World Federation, Bishop Dr Munib A. Younan of the Lutheran Church in Jordan met with Pope Benedict to plan a mutual recognition of what Martin Luther did for the Church. Benedict XVI expressed gratitude for “the many significant fruits produced” by decades of bilateral discussions between Lutherans and Roman Catholics, saying it had been possible “slowly and patiently to remove barriers and to foster visible bonds of unity by means of theological dialogue and practical cooperation, especially at the level of local communities.” In the years leading up to the next Reformation anniversary, the Pope said “Catholics and Lutherans are called to reflect anew on where our journey toward unity has led us and to implore the Lord’s guidance and help for the future.
The Pope pointed out that the signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ), whose tenth anniversary was marked in 2009, “has proved a significant step along the difficult path toward re-establishing full unity among Christians and a stimulus to further ecumenical discussion.”
Bishop Younan presented to the Pope a gift from Bethlehem, a carving depicting the Last Supper. Referring to this image, he said, “Each of us can bear witness to the importance of this sacramental meal in nurturing our own Christian lives. Each of us also knows the yearning for the time when we will be able to celebrate this feast together”.
Younan noted that the LWF had taken a significant step toward Christian reconciliation at its July 2010 Eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart, Germany, by asking forgiveness from Mennonites for the persecution of Anabaptists in the 16th century. In preparing for this act, he said, the LWF was mindful that this legacy was shared by other traditions, including Roman Catholics, who with other ecumenical guests stood in solemn solidarity when the action was pronounced at the Assembly.
"The president of the Lutheran World Federation, Bishop Munib Younan has said before meeting Pope Benedict XVI that their churches should issue a common statement on Holy Communion to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation that Martin Luther began in 1517.
“Our [the Lutheran federation’s] intention is to arrive at 2017 with a common Roman Catholic-Lutheran declaration on Eucharistic hospitality,” Younan announced."
episcopalcafe.com/lead/ecumenism/lutheran_leader_seeks_communio.html
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marimagi
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Real cool!:dancing:
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