Lutherans and the Papacy

[aidanbradypop]

Isolation doesn’t bode well for improving communication.

Neither does ordaining women and openly gay individuals.

I think most of us LCMS posters are absolutely working toward unity (why else would we contribute to a Roman Catholic forum? ), just not at the expense of our doctrinal beliefs. It’s my hope that people read these discussions and notice how very much we have in common.

In general, Mary, I’m not sure what to make of your post. I’m trying to put the best construction on your words, but it’s difficult for me to discern emotion through text. Is this a compliment, a backhanded compliment or something else?

Peace,

Mary could have meant “here” as meaning where she lives. Let’s give her a chance to reply lol

 

[MaryT777]

It was important to Jesus:

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

It’ doctrinal reasons that need to be ironed out. They have issues of course with the Papacy and the office being AntiChrist Justification is a key issue as well. The LCMS did not sign the JDDJ. So further discussions would be great.

I studied the Bible with them every Sunday and they used the Today’s Light Bible
for two years. My friend was the LCMS Pastor and had a Master’s in Exegesis.
Great speaker as well for a bonus.

They are against false ecumenism which is their main concern.
We share many moral values though which is a great starting point.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Absence from joint gatherings? That’s just untrue. That we are generally quiet about our dialogue is true, but to imply that the LCMS is not interested in seeking unity with other Christians is false.

The LCMS took part in 10 of 11 rounds of Lutheran-Catholic dialogue since 1964. Being absent from 1 is hardly a pattern of “isolation.” Let us remember that the LCMS was not invited to the 10th round of dialogue by the RCC (admittedly, I’m not sure the Synod would have agreed to the JDDJ had they been invited - but the point is that the LCMS has certainly engaged in fruitful dialogue to the furthest extent it can).

Thanks for the clarification. Guess I should have known that the LCMS participated in the discussions with Roman Catholics since I was a member when many of these took place.

There seems to be a pattern of reluctance and indecision among church leaders in the LCMS. For example, it was the LCMS who approached all other major Lutheran bodies in America to revise the liturgy and create a new hymnal back in the 1970’s only to abruptly pull out later.

 

[MaryT777]

When talking to family members that are life-long Lutherans (of the Fargo variety ) I find that much of the resistance to the Roman Catholic Church stems from a clinging to the “religious abuse” narratives from the 15th century. I have been in my own sort of ecumenical dialogue to demonstrate the many points of agreement there really are. I know this is working, because my mom was bemused when a friend from her church told her she “sounded like a Catholic.” I told her that was a compliment, because it also meant she was sounding more like an orthodox Lutheran, too.

Good point.

 

[MaryT777]

I can say that Lutherans do love their small groups and to study Scripture. I am a Southern Catholic so a good Bible study always gets me excited. I wish the faithful of the Catholic Church would get more into that. Benedict even asked us to study the Scriptures more.

I agree Aidan. (Dustin? is it? can’t recall)

 

[aidanbradypop]

I agree Aidan. (Dustin? is it? can’t recall)

It is Dustin…you can call me whatever, but just do not call me late for dinner.

Aidan, Brady are my sons and I am their Pop.

 

[MaryT777]

What’s interesting is that the LCMS folks here are actually the ones I get along with the best. LCMC—not so much lol and ELCA—hit and miss

I have friends in both synods; the ELCA is huge here.

 

[MaryT777]

Is that your opinion of me ?

Jon

No, No NO! (three times for emphasis ) The Local LCMS Church I’m familiar with in Iowa; they have major issues with the Pope and Justification here with the Catholic Church
We share many of the same morals though which is refreshing in this day and age.
This local Parish is extremely pro life and very active in the movement.

The posters here of all Faiths are great and working I believe towards unity and a Church that is one.

Whew…glad you posted that; my post was unclear.
Mary.

 

[aidanbradypop]

No, No NO! (three times for emphasis ) The Local LCMS Church I’m familiar with in Iowa; they have major issues with the Pope and Justification here with the Catholic Church
We share many of the same morals though which is refreshing in this day and age.
This local Parish is extremely pro life and very active in the movement.

The posters here of all Faiths are great and working I believe towards unity and a Church that is one.

Whew…glad you posted that; my post was unclear.
Mary.

I knew what ya meant but you sure made the feathers ruffle here for a sec lol

 

[MaryT777]

I think most of us LCMS posters are absolutely working toward unity (why else would we contribute to a Roman Catholic forum? ), just not at the expense of our doctrinal beliefs. It’s my hope that people read these discussions and notice how very much we have in common.

In general, Mary, I’m not sure what to make of your post. I’m trying to put the best construction on your words, but it’s difficult for me to discern emotion through text. Is this a compliment, a backhanded compliment or something else?

Peace,

Absolutely not
Here in my small town in Iowa ; not HERE on the forums; good grief I’m glad you and Jon posted.
I’ve clarified my post.
Blessings.
Mary.

I studied the Bible over two years with this LCMS Congregation; every Sunday between Worship Services with
the Today’s Light Bible and it was fantastic. I learned so much
about the Books of the Bible I never waded through myself because of my lack of understanding the original languages. They thought it was quite fascinating having
a Roman Catholic in the Study! The Pastor and I met in a Nursing home; he was preaching and I a property manager had a tenant in the Nursing home; came to hear him preach and the rest is history.

I ended up with great notes he gave out weekly which I have to this day for the entire Bible!
It was a dream come true to study the Bible with others for me, the entire thing. I told him they were so well written he should sell them on Ebay! LOL!
I apologize for the poorly worded post. I just followed up to Aidan’s post and Lo and Behold hit submit reply without reading the context of how it would “appear on the board:”
to mean “the posters HERE” not There.l
Ok then.
Just a little background info.

He gave me the book "Why I am a Lutheran by Preus and it’s fantastic, (Christ at the Center I believe was the subtitle) A great read for anyone of any denomination.

 

[steido01]

Absolutely not
Here in my small town in Iowa ; not HERE on the forums; good grief I’m glad you and Jon posted.
I’ve clarified my post.
Blessings.
Mary.

I should’ve figured. In my time at CAF, I’ve not known you to be one to intend offense! As usual, the issue was with the interpreter.

The English language - where “here” does not necessarily mean “here.”

 

[MaryT777]

I should’ve figured. In my time at CAF, I’ve not known you to be one to intend offense! As usual, the issue was with the interpreter.

The English language - where “here” does not necessarily mean “here.”

LOL! I was “here” “there” and everywhere on that post thanks for understanding My heart is still a tad Lutheran probably oh say a few percentage points where Christ and the Cross is at the center from my study there.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I should’ve figured. In my time at CAF, I’ve not known you to be one to intend offense! As usual, the issue was with the interpreter.

The English language - where “here” does not necessarily mean “here.”

Don…Mary is a secret member of the Lutheran Burning Club…

 

[JonNC]

The LCMS absence from joint Lutheran-Catholic gatherings is conspicuous. For example, I am puzzled why the Missouri Synod did not sign the Declaration on Justification? Isolation doesn’t bode well for improving communication.

You’re still a new-comer here, so you wouldn’t be aware of my constant criticism of the LCMS on both of these points, though ln160 will confirm it for you. I see no reason for our lack of signature on the JDDJ, with caveats if needed. I am thankful to see the new leadership of the LCMS now willing to participate, such as in the fight against the HHS Mandate, and in the recently signed Lutheran-Catholic document, “The Hope of Eternal Life”.
And I have also been complimentary of the ELCA/LWF for their efforts in ecumenism.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

No, No NO! (three times for emphasis ) The Local LCMS Church I’m familiar with in Iowa; they have major issues with the Pope and Justification here with the Catholic Church
We share many of the same morals though which is refreshing in this day and age.
This local Parish is extremely pro life and very active in the movement.

The posters here of all Faiths are great and working I believe towards unity and a Church that is one.

Whew…glad you posted that; my post was unclear.
Mary.

That’s why it is best to get a clarification before assuming.

I think, in some ways, the LCMS laity rather mirrors that of the CC. Generally three groups:

1. most either do or don’t attend mass, really don’t care about the reasons or causes for division, don’t even think about it.
2. a small group attached to the antagonisms and hatreds of the past, and are willing to voice them.
3. a small group who know the reasons for division, and are willing to reach out and. seek solutions, reject the old polemics as useless and dated. This group could be sub-divided into 2 groups,1 one that is willing to “compromise” for the sake of unity, and the second that thinks unity is best served…eventually…by steadfastness in doctrine.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Thanks for the clarification. Guess I should have known that the LCMS participated in the discussions with Roman Catholics since I was a member when many of these took place.

There seems to be a pattern of reluctance and indecision among church leaders in the LCMS. For example, it was the LCMS who approached all other major Lutheran bodies in America to revise the liturgy and create a new hymnal back in the 1970’s only to abruptly pull out later.

:sad_yes: The reluctance in dialogue with other Lutheran bodies is a sad reality. The incident with the LBW hymnal is a microcosm of how dialogue with other bodies tends to happen:

• Agree to work together
• Make progress toward agreed goal
• More liberal bodies adopt objectionable doctrine/content
• Missouri abandons project

In the case of the hymnal, it was the use of “inclusive” language and all the liturgical trimmings that would accompany it (and, of course, the theological shift such changes would demand). Abandoning “Father, Son and Holy Ghost” for “Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier” was not something the LCMS could do in good conscience. As all Lutherans are fond to note, to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. So Missouri ditched the project and published its own version (a rather poor one, at that…).

But the project did bear fruit for both of our churches – that terrible hymnal was the catalyst for the new hymnals (ELW and LSB) that more accurately reflect our churches theological standpoints.

 

[steido01]

Don…Mary is a secret member of the Lutheran Burning Club…

:bigyikes: In that case, she’d better get a handle on those Freudian slips!

 

[Peter_J]

We probably have more in common with the Catholic Church.

Part of it, too, is that in the past “We’re similar to you” was closely linked (at least in thought, if not aloud or on paper) with potential proselytizing. But that’s not the case so much today, so hopefully “We’re similar to you” will be heard a lot more often.

 

[JonNC]

Part of it, too, is that in the past “We’re similar to you” was closely linked (at least in thought, if not aloud or on paper) with potential proselytizing. But that’s not the case so much today, so hopefully “We’re similar to you” will be heard a lot more often.

And, of course, “you’re similar to them” was an accusation directed at Lutherans made by protestants.

Related, “we’re similar to them” must no longer be considered by Lutherans as something to be avoided. Too often we have given up things that are at the heart of Lutheranism because of a fear to appear too Catholic. Crossing ourselves; elevation of the sacrament, bowing/kneeling/genuflecting in the presence of His body and blood, weekly communion, as examples.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

And, of course, “you’re similar to them” was an accusation directed at Lutherans made by protestants.

Related, “we’re similar to them” must no longer be considered by Lutherans as something to be avoided. Too often we have given up things that are at the heart of Lutheranism because of a fear to appear too Catholic. Crossing ourselves; elevation of the sacrament, bowing/kneeling/genuflecting in the presence of His body and blood, weekly communion, as examples.

Jon

That is the trend going on in Fargo. Moving away from Catholic roots and going more for an Mainline stance.