Lutherans and the Papacy

[JonNC]

That is the trend going on in Fargo. Moving away from Catholic roots and going more for an Mainline stance.

That’s unfortunate. Lutherans do a lousy job trying to be mainline protestant. We do a worse job trying to be mega-church/evangelical. We are sacramental, liturgical, and confessional. So for us to be protestant, we have to compromise or minimize what makes us Lutheran.

Fact is, we are closer in our beliefs and practices to other sacramental, liturgical communions - Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox - than we are to mainline or evangelical protestants.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

And, of course, “you’re similar to them” was an accusation directed at Lutherans made by protestants.

True … although I admit that doesn’t come too quickly to my mind. I’m quicker to think of “you’re similar to them” as an accusation directed at Catholics by … well, more conservative Catholics (or sometimes Orthodox).

 

[Peter_J]

So for us to be protestant, we have to compromise or minimize what makes us Lutheran.

This is a tad tangential, but Fr. Robert Hart has an interesting take on the matter: that Anglicanism (and presumably Lutheranism, although he seldom discusses it) is both catholic *and *protestant. (Actually he says “Catholic and Protestant”, but I won’t get into the capital/lowercase issue here.)

 

[aidanbradypop]

This is a tad tangential, but Fr. Robert Hart has an interesting take on the matter: that Anglicanism (and presumably Lutheranism, although he seldom discusses it) is both catholic *and *protestant. (Actually he says “Catholic and Protestant”, but I won’t get into the capital/lowercase issue here.)

I always found intresting how my Anglican family members always said they were Catholic first and foremost. That was even before many of them joined the Church through the Personal Ordinariate. Whenever anything do to with the Pope, they always paid attention.

 

[benjohnson]

That is the trend going on in Fargo. Moving away from Catholic roots and going more for an Mainline stance.

There’s a group of LCMS churches that are in the “church growth” movement. It’s safe to say that it’s been a difficult situation.

 

[JonNC]

This is a tad tangential, but Fr. Robert Hart has an interesting take on the matter: that Anglicanism (and presumably Lutheranism, although he seldom discusses it) is both catholic *and *protestant. (Actually he says “Catholic and Protestant”, but I won’t get into the capital/lowercase issue here.)

Yeah, it might be more accurate (or clear) to say we are both C[c]atholic and evangelical (in the Reformation usage). We are, of course, protestant, in the historic sense, but the word seems to have such a broad meaning now that it has become somewhat meaningless.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Yeah, it might be more accurate (or clear) to say we are both C[c]atholic and evangelical (in the Reformation usage). We are, of course, protestant, in the historic sense, but the word seems to have such a broad meaning now that it has become somewhat meaningless.

Jon

I know what you mean. I guess that’s part of the reason I tend to call them (and/or you guys) “catholic and protestant” rather than “Catholic and Protestant”. (Of course it also has the benefit that we can say “Catholics” and mean only ourselves. )

 

[EvangelCatholic]

:sad_yes: The reluctance in dialogue with other Lutheran bodies is a sad reality. The incident with the LBW hymnal is a microcosm of how dialogue with other bodies tends to happen:

• Agree to work together
• Make progress toward agreed goal
• More liberal bodies adopt objectionable doctrine/content
• Missouri abandons project

In the case of the hymnal, it was the use of “inclusive” language and all the liturgical trimmings that would accompany it (and, of course, the theological shift such changes would demand). Abandoning “Father, Son and Holy Ghost” for “Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier” was not something the LCMS could do in good conscience. As all Lutherans are fond to note, to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. So Missouri ditched the project and published its own version (a rather poor one, at that…).

But the project did bear fruit for both of our churches – that terrible hymnal was the catalyst for the new hymnals (ELW and LSB) that more accurately reflect our churches theological standpoints.

Interesting comments, Don.

This incident with the pan-Lutheran hymnal goes back many years and was, in part, a response to Vatican II. I remember LCMS put out an excellent ‘Supplemental” book of liturgies [including a modified version of the Daily Offices] that Concordia published as a possible template for the new hymnal. It was widely applauded and used by different synods. The inclusive language you refer to was in coordination with the Roman Catholic, Anglican and other Christian groups, as I recall.

Essentially the Mass is identical among all Lutherans in this country. Why the LCMS decided to drop out was viewed with considerable disappointment.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That’s why it is best to get a clarification before assuming.

I think, in some ways, the LCMS laity rather mirrors that of the CC. Generally three groups:

1. most either do or don’t attend mass, really don’t care about the reasons or causes for division, don’t even think about it.
2. a small group attached to the antagonisms and hatreds of the past, and are willing to voice them.
3. a small group who know the reasons for division, and are willing to reach out and. seek solutions, reject the old polemics as useless and dated. This group could be sub-divided into 2 groups,1 one that is willing to “compromise” for the sake of unity, and the second that thinks unity is best served…eventually…by steadfastness in doctrine.

Jon

Any kind of ecumenism can be unsettling for Christians. The ELCA forged ahead with full communion agreements regardless of how the laity felt. Ironically, in reaching out to Episcopalians, by following the Provoo Accord, probably created more a stir than with the Reformed due to fear of extreme liberalism. But over the years, many Lutherans have come to appreciate the ecumenical efforts. There are several joint Lutheran/ Episcopal parishes that have essentially blended the two traditions quite nicely.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

There’s a group of LCMS churches that are in the “church growth” movement. It’s safe to say that it’s been a difficult situation.

Not only the LCMS but other Lutheran synods jumped on the bandwagon in order to appeal to those they thought wanted Protestant style worship. The results, as far as I can see, have been dismal. Frankly, I don’t have any problems other than personal preference for contemporary settings of the Mass. I rather like folk music and there are parishes in New York City that offer a jazz Mass.

But for a Lutheran pastor to lead worship in a short-sleeve shirt and cargo pants, and then poorly mimic an evangelical preacher, looks bizarre.

 

[hn160]

Thanks for the clarification. Guess I should have known that the LCMS participated in the discussions with Roman Catholics since I was a member when many of these took place.

There seems to be a pattern of reluctance and indecision among church leaders in the LCMS. For example, it was the LCMS who approached all other major Lutheran bodies in America to revise the liturgy and create a new hymnal back in the 1970’s only to abruptly pull out later.

The LC-MS felt that there was doctrinal and theological reasons for not using the LBW. I don’t believe that WELS or ELS accepted it either.

 

[Jotto]

I can say that Lutherans do love their small groups and to study Scripture. I am a Southern Catholic so a good Bible study always gets me excited. I wish the faithful of the Catholic Church would get more into that. Benedict even asked us to study the Scriptures more.

Studying the Scriptures is good as is studying the documents of Vatican Council II and the social doctrines of the Church. But unless such study leads to mission and witness, it’s value is questionable.

 

[joe371]

Yeah, it might be more accurate (or clear) to say we are both C[c]atholic and evangelical (in the Reformation usage). We are, of course, protestant, in the historic sense, but the word seems to have such a broad meaning now that it has become somewhat meaningless.

Jon

Both catholic (small c, as you stated) and Lutheran is perhaps more fitting?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Studying the Scriptures is good as is studying the documents of Vatican Council II and the social doctrines of the Church. But unless such study leads to mission and witness, it’s value is questionable.

This really makes no sense. Are you stating the studying Scripture for the sake of learning more is questionable or studying Church documents?

 

[MaryT777]

This really makes no sense. Are you stating the studying Scripture for the sake of learning more is questionable or studying Church documents?

Hopefully Jotto can clarify the post.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Hopefully Jotto can clarify the post.

He may have a valid point in there but I am not getting it

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The counter argument is that some Catholics don’t want Lutherans to return home

 

[aidanbradypop]

The counter argument is that some Catholics don’t want Lutherans to return home

You cannot be serious EC. Why on earth would Catholics not want Lutherans to return to the Church?

 

[rfournier103]

Studying the Scriptures is good as is studying the documents of Vatican Council II and the social doctrines of the Church. But unless such study leads to mission and witness, it’s value is questionable.

This really makes no sense. Are you stating the studying Scripture for the sake of learning more is questionable or studying Church documents?

I think what he’s trying to say is that studying the Scriptures IS as good as studying the Church Documents.

However, you can study all you want, BUT if you don’t SHARE your knowledge with others by evangelizing, and witnessing, all the study in the world won’t mean nearly as much.

Why keep such treasure to ourselves? That’s how I read it…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You cannot be serious EC. Why on earth would Catholics not want Lutherans to return to the Church?

Many too many warts but we promise to show up on time for the Meal