Lutherans and the Papacy

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rfournier103 said:
I think what he’s trying to say is that studying the Scriptures IS as good as studying the Church Documents.

However, you can study all you want, BUT if you don’t SHARE your knowledge with others by evangelizing, and witnessing, all the study in the world won’t mean nearly as much.

Why keep such treasure to ourselves? That’s how I read it…
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Well that makes sense if he is stating that
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The counter argument is that some Catholics don’t want Lutherans to return home :rolleyes:
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I see this post has already generated numerous responses but, regardless, I find it something of an odd thing to say.

I think this:
“Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”
  • the Balamand Statement
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tells you where we stand … although two caveats are in order. First, that was said in the context of Catholic-Orthodox relations, but I think it also applies to e.g. Catholic-Lutheran relations. Secondly, I don’t believe it is suggesting that we should discourage non-Catholic Christians from becoming Catholic.

Anyhow, my impression is that you think we do, not too much proselytizing, but too little. :hmmm:
 
Lutherans and Catholics: From Conflict to Communion
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2013-06-17 Vatican Radio
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(Vatican Radio) From Conflict to Communion: that’s how Lutherans and Catholics are describing their ecumenical journey of the past 50 years, as they look ahead together to the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017.
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From Conflict to Communion is the name of a joint document from the Lutheran-Roman Catholic International Commission on Unity which was presented at a press conference on Monday at the Lutheran World Federation headquarters in Geneva. The lengthy text looks at the joint responsibility for the division of the Western Church in the 16th century, addressing the challenges of healing those memories and working together for reconciliation and common witness to the world.
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Topics explored in the document include basic themes of Martin Luther’s theology with a view to Lutheran–Catholic dialogue, as well as focusing on five ecumenical imperatives for the relationship between both Churches as they commemorate 2017 together.On October 31st 1517, German monk and theologian Martin Luther is thought to have nailed to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg his 95 theses addressing issues that he saw as urgently in need of reform. The resulting Reformation not only divided the Protestant and Catholic Churches, but also radically challenged the role of religion in societies.
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Mgr. Matthias Turk is in charge of Lutheran-Catholic relations with the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. He accompanied Council President, Cardinal Kurt Koch to Geneva on Monday for a joint press conference and earlier he spoke to Philippa Hitchen about the significance of this joint document on commemorating the Reformation together:
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news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
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rfournier103 said:
I think what he’s trying to say is that studying the Scriptures IS as good as studying the Church Documents.

However, you can study all you want, BUT if you don’t SHARE your knowledge with others by evangelizing, and witnessing, all the study in the world won’t mean nearly as much.

Why keep such treasure to ourselves? That’s how I read it…
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Yes, brother Fournier has understood me correctly. Both the study of Scriptures and the study of the Church’s evolving tradition is commendable. But if such learning is only an intellectual exercise and not a matter of the heart so that the knowledge gained leads to our allowing the Spirit to move us through the barriers that separate us from God and one another then we have yet to fully understand what we have studied.
 
Jotto said:
Yes, brother Fournier has understood me correctly. Both the study of Scriptures and the study of the Church’s evolving tradition is commendable. But if such learning is only an intellectual exercise and not a matter of the heart so that the knowledge gained leads to our allowing the Spirit to move us through the barriers that separate us from God and one another then we have yet to fully understand what we have studied.
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Thanks for the clarification of your point of view.
Mary.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Much is discussed about “Catholic bashing” like all Protestants are extremely anti-catholic. Personally, I never hear that kind of talk among Lutherans. In-fact in our liturgical calendar, a holy day is devoted to Pope John 23rd [6/3]. Lutherans fell in love with Benedict and had a very high regard for John Paul 2nd. Our saint days include St Gregory [3/12].

Actually, I am not alone among Lutherans to view the Vatican as our spiritual home; like estranged cousins we want unity among of Children of God.

But we can not abide the infallibility issue; it has held back Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans. Is it possible that the dogma of papal infallibility will be revised?

BTW, Lutherans are quite taken by Francis. This leader has the potential to lead the Church into Vatican 3 :thumbsup:
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This is nice to know, about your experience not encountering anti-Catholicism …but that emboldened bit requires much prayer and reflection, for if it were reliant on a Pope, it would have occurred several centuries ago!
EvangelCatholic said:
The counter argument is that some Catholics don’t want Lutherans to return home
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Not as Lutherans! The requirement to shed Lutheran ‘clothing’ for Catholic knowledge is the biggies, even if allowed to keep your sandals!

:cool:
 
Deconi said:
This is nice to know, about your experience not encountering anti-Catholicism …but that emboldened bit requires much prayer and reflection, for if it were reliant on a Pope, it would have occurred several centuries ago!

Not as Lutherans! The requirement to shed Lutheran ‘clothing’ for Catholic knowledge is the biggies, even if allowed to keep your sandals!

:cool:
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You know you’re out of compliance w/ the Vatican? news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
 
EvangelCatholic said:
You know you’re out of compliance w/ the Vatican? news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
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I think you’ve misread the dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans. We don’t *proselytize *Lutherans anymore (at least not officially – I can make no blanket guarantees that no Catholic ever proselytizes, of course); but if a Lutheran chooses switch sides (or whatever we want to call it) and become Catholic, then he/she must accept the law-of-the-land of Catholicism, including Papal Supremacy and UOJ, the Immaculate Conception etc.
 
Peter_J said:
I think you’ve misread the dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans. We don’t *proselytize *Lutherans anymore (at least not officially – I can make no blanket guarantees that no Catholic ever proselytizes, of course); but if a Lutheran chooses switch sides (or whatever we want to call it) and become Catholic, then he/she must accept the law-of-the-land of Catholicism, including Papal Supremacy and UOJ, the Immaculate Conception etc.
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List:
1] If you are referring to Universal Objective Justification, it is not included in the Joint Declaration on Justification
41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.
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vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
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2] Immaculate Conception as well as assumption into heaven of BVM are fully recognized as a Lutheran piety

3] Infallibility wasn’t decided until the 1800’s without universal catholic consent.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
List:
1] If you are referring to Universal Objective Justification, it is not included in the Joint Declaration on Justification
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No, I meant “Papal infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction”.

I guess the question is, why would a Lutheran want to convert to Catholicism, unless he/she believes what we believe? (Likewise, imagine if I told an Orthodox priest “I’d like to leave Catholicism and become Orthodox, but I still believe in Papal infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction.” :hmmm:)
 
Peter_J said:
No, I meant “Papal infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction”.

I guess the question is, why would a Lutheran want to convert to Catholicism, unless he/she believes what we believe? (Likewise, imagine if I told an Orthodox priest “I’d like to leave Catholicism and become Orthodox, but I still believe in Papal infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction.” :hmmm:)
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I’d like to see the look on the Orthodox priest’s face…
 
EvangelCatholic said:
You know you’re out of compliance w/ the Vatican? news.va/en/news/lutherans-and-catholics-from-conflict-to-communion
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Perhaps you read something in there that I do not see! That article and ALL current dialogue simply acknowledge that our ‘conflict’ no longer exist - the antiEach other bit - and effort is focussed on ‘reunion’

Nothing states that a Catholic can now partake in Lutheran missal with immunity, nor (especially) the vice versa.

I too cannot fathom the desire to be united to The Catholic Church!..unless one has disserned that She is where Home is!..and by implication, leave that which is ‘partial’ to Her scope, or forsake Her completely as being the ‘partial’ party in regards Our Lord’s decrees!

:cool:
 
Maybe Papacy will be weighed against state-church arrangements in several Lutheran countries. You are counted / taxed Lutheran unless you say otherwise. King Harald V of Norway heads the Church of Norway.
 
Jotto said:
Both the study of Scriptures and the study of the Church’s evolving tradition is commendable. But if such learning is only an intellectual exercise and not a matter of the heart so that the knowledge gained leads to our allowing the Spirit to move us through the barriers that separate us from God and one another then we have yet to fully understand what we have studied.
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Truer words were never said. 👍
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Lutherans are basically the same worldwide.
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This could never be a more false statement…they differ SIGNIFICANTLY, even here in America with the ELCA, LCMS and WELS. If Luther were alive today I don’t think he’d even recognize the ELCA as Confessional Lutheranism as was intended.
 
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