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jmcrae
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My understanding of it is that the early Mormons were just really badly backslidden Presbyterians. What they have evolved into since is nothing like that, of course, but I’m pretty sure they’re an offshoot of Presbyterianism, originally.
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dianaiad
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dianaiad
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No, we just have a good case of the giggles…I suspect a good Mormon would be having octokittens right along with him!
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dianaiad
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Given that Presbyterians (as far as I am aware) are sola fideans, sola scripturians, and Calvinist to a very great degree, (that is, predestination personified), I don’t recognize a whole lot of Presbyterianism in Mormonism.
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RebeccaJ
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I was watching “Big Love” last night. There was a scene where a Baptist minister is telling the Mormon (non-LDS, polygamist practicing Mormons) that their Book of Mormon was false and they followed a false prophet. He was literally, screaming it at them on this touristy spot on the Mississippi river.
After the whole family got in their cars, one little boy said to his mom,“That man was scary.” She replied,“All Baptists are.”
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JPUSC
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I first thought the thread read “Lutherans are Morons”.
Though, I suppose you can call the Lutheran who thinks he’s a Mormon one.
Kidding…
Though, I suppose you can call the Lutheran who thinks he’s a Mormon one.
Kidding…
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adstrinity
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snickerI was watching “Big Love” last night. There was a scene where a Baptist minister is telling the Mormon (non-LDS, polygamist practicing Mormons) that their Book of Mormon was false and they followed a false prophet. He was literally, screaming it at them on this touristy spot on the Mississippi river.
After the whole family got in their cars, one little boy said to his mom,“That man was scary.” She replied,“All Baptists are.”
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LutheranDK
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Exactly - you nailed it
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Zooey
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Me neither.
Maybe influenced by his hometown, though? Seems to have been (& still is) a place of many churches.
palmyrany.com/pal_history_brief_3.htm
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dianaiad
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Certainly he was influenced by the ‘revivalist’ fervor that was endemic in that area. Everybody was going a little (sometimes more than a little) nuts. A young, impressionable kid in the middle of all that?
Doesn’t much matter whether one believes that his experiences are real or not, they make sense in the context of the times.
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RebeccaJ
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The second Great Awakening, of course, had a huge impact and influence. American transcendentalism is also woven very tightly into Mormon thought and belief.
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dianaiad
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Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Pretty amazing for an uneducated kid who didn’t have a clue what American Transcendentalism actually was…
But there are a great many ideas common to both, this is very true.
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RebeccaJ
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Very funny! Emerson certainly was widely read. As was Thoreau. Not to mention Emerson was a Freemason and influenced Freemasonry, which in turn is infused into Mormonism
Amazing! About as amazing as a Catholic saying a Hail Mary.
And then there’s Swedenborg, which has been shown time and again to have greatly influenced Mormon belief.
If you don’t believe it was your poor uneducated Smith (who by the way, would not agree with you, he counted himself as educated), then you can look to the man who formed your religion along with Smith, Rigdon.
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adstrinity
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The thread isn’t about what’s wrong/right with Mormonism…or Lutheranism…for that matter.
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dianaiad
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The problem, of course, is that your timing is a little off. Not to mention your geography and church associations; American transcendentalism was first promoted in Eastern Massechussetts in the very late 1820s through the 1830’s, and was originally begun as a sort of rift in the Unitarians. Sidney Rigdon was a Baptist preacher in Ohio, a good decade earlier. By the time the American Trancendentalists were publishing their works, Joseph Smith (and, if you wish, Sidney Rigdon) had the church’s basic ideas going strong.
I don’t know why you reacted the way you did, Rebecca…can’t you keep from sniping at me even when I agree with you?
As for Joseph’s opinion of his own education, yes, he became educated, and did fairly well for himself that way—but NOT when he was fourteen, or nineteen. (shrug)
The trancendentalists have a great many ideas that resonate with Mormon thought. I find nothing at all embarrassing, or odd, about that. I like the transcendentalists, and think that Poe’s opinion of them tastes a little of sour grapes.
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RebeccaJ
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Hi, “The Transcendentalist”, a speech that is considered the definition of American Transcendentalism, was given by Emerson in 1842, to the Boston Masons. Of course it is a movement that lasted decades. Into the 1850’s, and many followers remain today. And you left out a philosopher who influenced both transcendental and Mormon thought, Swedenborg. So no, my timing is not off.
Because you do that Mormon thing where you twist history to match your beliefs. It is like nails on chalkboard and makes me want to scream.
Please, I’m talking about a grown man here, not a boy.
Yes, let’s walk out into the woods and feel good and call that “God”. It is new age nonsense.
Mormonism today retains much of this philosophy, but it also moves away from it. The rigidity of Mormon thought today would have been rejected as much as any other in the early years of Mormonism.
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dianaiad
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It is if Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon did indeed use those ideas as part of setting up the church. Remember, the church itself was formed (along with the ideas that went with it) a good ten to fifteen years EARLIER.
Perhaps after nearly two centuries a decade or two may not mean much but…given the timing, it would be far more fair, if we are talking about cause and effect, anyway, to say that American Transcendentalism had a lot of MORMON ideas, rather than visa versa.
No, Rebecca, I’m talking about arithmetic. You seem to have forgotten how to count. Yes, Emmerson gave his speech in 1842. By that time the church was well up, running, and the ideas underlying it were well entrenched. Joseph Smith WAS a grown man at the time, yeah…but he was murdered in the spring of 1844–and at least during the two years previous to his death, I do not believe that he was ever IN Boston.
In fact, the church was idealogically set even in 1837 when Emmerson wrote and published “Nature.”
Rebecca, nice try. Don’t quite see what you are attempting to do with coupling Transcendentalism with Mormonism, but AS A MOVEMENT, it simply doesn’t work. Yes, the transcendentalists sparked many religious movements, and their ideas were incorporated into many of them, but ALL of those movements were begun after 1838. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was ideologically formed somewhat before that–and OFFICIALLY formed in 1830.
Sorry, but unless Joseph Smith was reading stuff that wasn’t published for nearly a full decade AFTER the church was formed (which would make him, what…a prophet?) then the transcendentalists didn’t have a whole lot to do with the ideology and doctrine of the church.
That some of the ideas are SHARED? Oh, yeah. They are. But then I’ve never denied that. But you seem to think that Joseph Smith formed his church upon the ideas of Emmerson–when the simple timeline shows that if there IS a cause and effect, it’s the other way around.
As in…1836 and 1842 come AFTER 1830.
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MelanieAnne
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Remarkable irony in this question.
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dianaiad
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