Lutherans becoming Catholics [Fr. Z]

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure what you mean, Jon. My posts don’t contradict, do they? I simply was pointing out on the one post that if the Church has Lutherans that want to defect, DO IT and make it happen FAST! Then on the other post I was pointing out the fact that the Church does teach that the Lutherans are not Catholic. I think if I were Lutheran and I was ok with sola scriptura (which I’m not really at this point) and a lack of apostolic succession and the Lutheran view of the Eucharist, etc. and I could reconcile that with the Early Church and the Fathers, then I would think the Lutheran Church is Catholic, just reformed. But I cannot take that position, quite a leap for me. I think Lutherans are in schism from the Catholic Church and are Christians obviously, and very close to being Catholic. But the apostolic succession, being out of unity with Peter, their views on the Sacraments, sola scriptura, etc. cannot be called Catholic from a Roman point of view. You and I know that and I was simply stating that. I hope you don’t feel I’m giving a low opinion of Lutherans. They’re awesome folks and of all the Protestants, along with the Anglicans, maybe moreso actually, they’re my faves. In fact, when I was Anglican, I often wished the Anglicans were CONFESSIONAL like Lutherans and had a coherent statement of belief and catechesis like that of the Large and Small Catechisms of Luther and the Augsburgh confession.

I hope you know I respect your church. I just don’t think it was accurate what the poster said that Lutheranism and Catholicism are the same thing? Then he said Luther was a Catholic, not a Lutheran. That made little sense to me.

God bless, Jon!

Gurney,
I find this post intersting in view of your following post about the differences between us.
So a question, eith the indulgence (pardon the pun ) of the OP; What do you think it will take for a “Lutheran Ordinariate” to take place, to bring reconciliation between Rome and a large number of Lutheran?

I have viewed any of three things for me:

1. A Rome statement accepting the Augsburg Confession as an essentially Catholic confession.
2. A statement of reconciliation between my synod and Rome.
3. The reconciliation of Rome and Orthodoxy (simply because I would see it as an undeniable movement of the Holy Spirit within the Church).

Your thoughts.
Jon

 

[gcnuss]

Luther’s excommunication Decet Romanum Pontificem

I guess it’s all in how you look at it. We Lutherans would say that Luther was tossed out of the Catholic Church, not that he left it.

 

[mark_a]

I guess it’s all in how you look at it. We Lutherans would say that Luther was tossed out of the Catholic Church, not that he left it.

Comparatively speaking, Luther was tossed for reasons much less troubling than many or even most of what present day U.S Catholics seem to hold to.

 

[JonNC]

Hi gurney,
I changed the order of your post to respond to this first.

=gurneyhalleck1;7674088]I hope you know I respect your church. I just don’t think it was accurate what the poster said that Lutheranism and Catholicism are the same thing? Then he said Luther was a Catholic, not a Lutheran. That made little sense to me.

I KNOW you hold no disrespect for Lutheranism!! And I apologize if you got the impression that I thought you did. While you are right in much of this regard, I think Luther would have self-identified as evangelical - Catholic.

I’m not sure what you mean, Jon. My posts don’t contradict, do they? I simply was pointing out on the one post that if the Church has Lutherans that want to defect, DO IT and make it happen FAST! Then on the other post I was pointing out the fact that the Church does teach that the Lutherans are not Catholic. I think if I were Lutheran and I was ok with sola scriptura (which I’m not really at this point) and a lack of apostolic succession and the Lutheran view of the Eucharist, etc. and I could reconcile that with the Early Church and the Fathers, then I would think the Lutheran Church is Catholic, just reformed. But I cannot take that position, quite a leap for me. I think Lutherans are in schism from the Catholic Church and are Christians obviously, and very close to being Catholic. But the apostolic succession, being out of unity with Peter, their views on the Sacraments, sola scriptura, etc. cannot be called Catholic from a Roman point of view. You and I know that and I was simply stating that. I hope you don’t feel I’m giving a low opinion of Lutherans. They’re awesome folks and of all the Protestants, along with the Anglicans, maybe moreso actually, they’re my faves. In fact, when I was Anglican, I often wished the Anglicans were CONFESSIONAL like Lutherans and had a coherent statement of belief and catechesis like that of the Large and Small Catechisms of Luther and the Augsburgh confession.

I understand entirely your position regarding you view of Lutheranism (though I think our views regarding the nature of the Eucharist are much closer than some on both sides would like to admit).

Really, the point of my post was to pick your brain on how you think reconciliation between us could happen. You more than most, having been at times “caught in the nexus between Anglican and Catholic”, might have some interesting views on how this could take place.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Jon,

Well in many ways I’m still caught in that nexus, brother…

I think reconciliation of ALL the “biggies” is next to impossible. Orthodoxy and Catholicism could reunite if the pope were willing to be Metropolitan of the West and drop the infallibility and universal supremacy claims, accepting primus inter pares. They’d have to drop a lot of the more legalistic approaches to Christianity (i.e. indulgences, annulments, etc.).

For Lutheranism to join with Christianity, I think Lutheranism would have to re-think their view of holy orders, the Catholics would have to re-think a hard and fast absolutist view of the Eucharist, indulgences would have to fly in the bed of the truck like a crushed Coors can, the pope would have to drop the infallibility stuff, sola scriptura would have to give a bit and the Church would have to be given equal weight instead of the Lutheran view. The Marian dogmas would have to become just the realm of pious opinion and devotion and not universal dogmatic requirements, both sides would have to give a heck of a lot.

I share your dream of this happening, Jon. Like the Catholic Contarini (not the poster but the real historical figure ) who sought to heal the breach between these two separated brothers, you and I wish things were different.

I have struggled with Catholicism, frankly, because I have trouble accepting a few things that marginalize Protestants—extra ecclesiam non sallus, indulgences bug me, Lumen Gentium 25, CCC 841, etc. I just got through recently arguing with people here at CAF about praying to saints. They were angry that I like to pray only to Jesus and not through saints. The arguments they made concerned me a great deal.

We all have a long way to go. As far as Protestants go, I really like the LCMS and WELS Lutherans. Class acts…

Hi gurney,
I changed the order of your post to respond to this first.

I KNOW you hold no disrespect for Lutheranism!! And I apologize if you got the impression that I thought you did. While you are right in much of this regard, I think Luther would have self-identified as evangelical - Catholic.

I understand entirely your position regarding you view of Lutheranism (though I think our views regarding the nature of the Eucharist are much closer than some on both sides would like to admit).

Really, the point of my post was to pick your brain on how you think reconciliation between us could happen. You more than most, having been at times “caught in the nexus between Anglican and Catholic”, might have some interesting views on how this could take place.

Jon