Lutherans...closest to Catholics?

[7_Sorrows]

As I understand it (and there are plenty of Anglicans here who could correct me), the Anglican Church is more of a product of Queen Elizabeth I and the so-called “Elizabethan Settlement” than of Henry VIII. Henry VIII, as you point out, was basically Catholic minus the Pope. It was not until later that Anglicanism started adopting elements of the continental reformation, and the Elizabethan Settlement formalized the “via media” between Catholicism and Protestantism.

I think if you read all the posts in this thread you will also see comments related to the 39 Articles/Augsburg Confession and the Lutheran/Catholic dialogues. Just to repeat - the Augsburg Confession is more “Catholic” than the 39 Articles, which have elements of Calvinist influence.

You also make a comment that Anglicans have the creeds and the sacraments. Lutherans have the same 3 creeds that Anglicans and Catholics have - Apostle’s, Nicene, and Athanasian.

The Lutheran understanding of the sacraments is not all that different than the Anglican understanding. Anglicans have the 2 major sacraments (baptism, communion) and 5 minors (ordination, etc.). It is commonly believed that Lutherans believe in only 2, but the Confessions do not limit the sacraments to 2. Confession/absolution is often referred to as a sacrament, and in the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, the sacramental quality of other things, like marriage, is mentioned. Melanchthon’s criticism of the list of 7 sacraments in the RC Church is not that it should be limited to 2, but that there are many more things than that that have a sacramental quality to them (he lists prayer, as an example).

Finally, in some of the Scandanavian Lutheran Churches (the Church of Sweden, for example), they also have the order of archbishop/bishop/priest/deacon.

yes, i agree that with Queen Elizabeth, the church became more formalized and defined.
you are correct in the term “via media”. i am not sure when Thomas Cranmer authored the Book of Common Prayer which is one of the best things to come out of anglicanism as far as i am concerned. i had thought that was completed while the king was still living, but i might be mistaken. the history between catholics and protestants in england during this time is pretty sad. many people were killed on both sides.

 

[GKC]

History has a strange way of being colored depending on who has the crayons.

Maybe so, But this is historically accurate, as to what Henry tried to do, from 1527 to 1534.

As to the XXXIX Articles, they are not normative for Anglicans, outside of the ordinands of the Church of England, and (IIRC) the members of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, generally. They are not a form of Anglican confession.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

Maybe so, But this is historically accurate, as to what Henry tried to do, from 1527 to 1534.

As to the XXXIX Articles, they are not normative for Anglicans, outside of the ordinands of the Church of England, and (IIRC) the members of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, generally. They are not a form of Anglican confession.

GKC

glad you showed up GKC. i know are an expert on this topic. thanks for helping out!

 

[GKC]

If Henry was so concerned about his position with Rome, then why didn’t he ever reconcile? He had the chance. After the death of Catherine of Aragon, he could have restored communion with Rome, but he didn’t. So the argument that he really wnated to reamain Catholic does not fly.

Henry was not particularly concerned with remaining a Catholic, in communion with the Pope, given the requirements to remain wed to Catherine, with the issues that raised for his dynastic succession.

By the time Catherine died, in 1536, Henry had been married to Anne Boleyn for a year. After Anne was executed, it was thought that Henry might, in fact, return; Charles V assumed it would happen. By that time, Henry wasn’t interested.

GKC.

 

[GKC]

glad you showed up GKC. i know are an expert on this topic. thanks for helping out!

You are very kind. In fact, I was just rehearsing this story on another board.

It’s complicated, like a lot of history, being full of people, and stuff.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

You are very kind. In fact, I was just rehearing this story on another board.

It’s complicated, like a lot of history, being full of people, and stuff.

GKC

yes, very complicated. a lot of facts and names to keep straight!

 

[GKC]

i would have to read up on more history, but was he already ex-communicated by the time of Catherine’s death? was he already married to anne boleyn? he was concerned about his position with Rome and that is why he waited for several years waiting for the ruling by the Pope. the king was more or less backed into a political corner. he needed a male heir. i won’t judge him because times were different back then. did Rome reach out to the king after the death of Catherine? i don’t know the history on that so i cannot comment. i don’t think the king approved of what martin luther did by posting his grievances on the church door. the two men were both of the Catholic faith. did Luther try to reconcile?

Nope. Yep. Sort of.

Henry was not at all fond of Luther, in the beginning. Late in life, he played around with making common cause with some of teh Lutheran principalities, but little came of it.

GKC

 

[GKC]

yes, very complicated. a lot of facts and names to keep straight!

The very best book to read on Henry and his time and troubles (as I often say) is J. J. Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII.

Scarisbrick is a RC.

GKC

 

[GKC]

i don’t consider myself a Henry apologist and have no desire to rehabilitate him. he seems a man consumed by power and lust. i am only referring to what happened in reference to his marriage to Catherine and his desire for an annullment. he definitely seemed a scoundrel in regards to the women in his life.

Henry was a fascinating train wreck. And a lot of the people he interacted with were, too.

GKC

 

[GKC]

yes, i agree that with Queen Elizabeth, the church became more formalized and defined.
you are correct in the term “via media”. i am not sure when Thomas Cranmer authored the Book of Common Prayer which is one of the best things to come out of anglicanism as far as i am concerned. i had thought that was completed while the king was still living, but i might be mistaken. the history between catholics and protestants in england during this time is pretty sad. many people were killed on both sides.

The first Cranmerian BCP is the 1549 edition.

Yes, as to the influence of the Elizabethan Compromise. It was her reign that formed the CoE as it was for most of the past 500 years.

GKC

 

[GKC]

There are a lot of Henry apologists who try to rehabilitate him. He was a scoundrel apart from his dealings with the Church.

I don’t try to rehabilitate him. I do, however, know what was going on.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

Henry was a fascinating train wreck. And a lot of the people he interacted with were, too.

GKC

you are right on both points - he is a fascinating historical figure and he was definitely a train wreck. i will have to look for the book you recommended at the library. thanks.

 

[Contarini]

y i had thought that was completed while the king was still living, but i might be mistaken.

The 1549 and 1552 BCP’s (the two versions edited by Cranmer) were both put together in the reign of Edward VI, son of Henry VIII. The 1559 version, which combined elements of both, was put together under Elizabeth, by which time Cranmer was dead (burned as a heretic under Mary).

Edwin

 

[GKC]

The 1549 and 1552 BCP’s (the two versions edited by Cranmer) were both put together in the reign of Edward VI, son of Henry VIII. The 1559 version, which combined elements of both, was put together under Elizabeth, by which time Cranmer was dead (burned as a heretic under Mary).

Edwin

Yep. And the words of Administration, as taken from the 49 and the 52, combined in the 59, are an excellent example of what the Elizabethan Compromise meant.

GKC

 

[grandfather]

i don’t consider myself a Henry apologist and have no desire to rehabilitate him. he seems a man consumed by power and lust. i am only referring to what happened in reference to his marriage to Catherine and his desire for an annullment. he definitely seemed a scoundrel in regards to the women in his life.

I did not say you were a Henry apologist. Sorry if it was taken that way. I said there are a lot of them. He had seven wives. Most of them met unpleasant ends. He had many other women as well, but Ann Bolyn would not have sex with him unless he married her. She wanted to be queen. She knew keeping Henry at bay was her ticket to the throne. The male heir story was fabricated. He also tried to destroy Catherine’s reputation in other ways. He made himself the head of the church in England and his illegitimate daughter Elizabeth followed eventually. She also had an unpleasant, but natural death. She refused to be assisted by the Anglican hierarchy, calling them a bunch of hedge priests. She refused to stay in her bed and sat on the floor crying. Lord Nelson tried to comfort her and get her back into bed, but she said he would not tell her to go there if he knew what was waiting for her there. How many Catholic priests did she have drawn and quartered?

 

[GKC]

I did not say you were a Henry apologist. Sorry if it was taken that way. I said there are a lot of them. He had seven wives. Most of them met unpleasant ends. He had many other women as well, but Ann Bolyn would not have sex with him unless he married her. She wanted to be queen. She knew keeping Henry at bay was her ticket to the throne. The male heir story was fabricated. He also tried to destroy Catherine’s reputation in other ways. He made himself the head of the church in England and his illegitimate daughter Elizabeth followed eventually. She also had an unpleasant, but natural death. She refused to be assisted by the Anglican hierarchy, calling them a bunch of hedge priests. She refused to stay in her bed and sat on the floor crying. Lord Nelson tried to comfort her and get her back into bed, but she said he would not tell her to go there if he knew what was waiting for her there. How many Catholic priests did she have drawn and quartered?

Six wives.

The male heir story is history. Henry tried several approaches, with both Henry Fitzroy, his illegitimate son by Elizabeth Blount, and with his daughter Mary, to see if something could be worked out, as late as 1525, before submitting his casua in 1527.

Your fable as to how Elizabeth died is not to be found in any bio I know of, and I got a shelf full of them. The comment as to getting in bed (that, to content the people she must get in bed) came from Lord Burghley, and her reply was that the word “must” is not to used to princes. Who do you think Lord Nelson was?). Her death scene is given, in many places, including (the first to hand), Elizabeth Jenkins/ ELIZABETH THE GREAT. At the end, she called for the Archbishop of Canterbury, who prayed with her for hours (op. cit. p. 358).

Got a source you can cite for your version?

For Henry, again, Scarisbrick, HENRY VIII. To be deep in history requires at least a modicum of familiarity with it.

GKC

 

[Contarini]

Your fable as to how Elizabeth died is not to be found in any bio I know of, and I got a shelf full of them. Got a source you can cite?

Doesn’t Waugh’s book on Campion have something of the kind? Or maybe the poster is recycling something out of a Benson novel.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Doesn’t Waugh’s book on Campion have something of the kind? Or maybe the poster is recycling something out of a Benson novel.

Edwin

I got Waugh’s CAMPION, yes, but I can’t find it, and don’t remember that tale. If it turns up, I’ll report.

But it certainly sounds like Benson’s approach, to me.

Taking the next account to hand, Anne Somerset/ ELIZABETH I, is similar to Jenkins, but has more detail. None of the above cited version.

Let’s see what else is around.

Added: Lacey Baldwin Smith/ELIZABETH TUDOR. Nope. No such fable.

GKC

 

[grandfather]

Got a source you can cite for your version?

GKC

I may be able to find the book in my library. I’ll look tonight. Memory is getting foggy, but substantially my recollection is close to what I read years ago. Will look tonight.

What was the cause of Henry’s death?

 

[grandfather]

I got Waugh’s CAMPION, yes, but I can’t find it, and don’t remember that tale. If it turns up, I’ll report.

But it certainly sounds like Benson’s approach, to me.

Taking the next account to hand, Anne Somerset/ ELIZABETH I, is similar to Jenkins, but has more detail. None of the above cited version.

Let’s see what else is around.

GKC

Will look tonight. Was not Benson.