Lutherans Declare Catholic Priesthood is Valid

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Lutherans and Anglicans cannot receive the Eucharist at the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church rightly, does not believe in the holy orders of those communities. Lutherans and Anglicans are self ordained, same as all protestant ministers, and are not Apostolic in any way, shape, or form. While it is a wonderful thing that these communities believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the fact that they do not have valid Priesthoods means that Christ is “not” present in the Eucharist within these communities. It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to receive a false Eucharist at a Lutheran or Anglican community and it would be a mortal sin for Lutherans or Anglicans to receive the real Eucharist at a Catholic Church.

the above statement is mean spirited - inaccurate and offensive
the laying on of consecration of Priests by Bishops and consecration of Bishops by Bishopes has existed in an UNBROKEN LINE from the Apostles in the Anglican communion-the RC Church does not deny it

many threads have discussed Anglican orders -read any by GKC-the Catholic Church via the Pope-the Anglicans were not “self ordained” -that was not the issue with the RC Church and Anglican Orders it is from the Roman church view a matter of “form” - I will end this now

Point 2-I am perplexed by what the LUtherans thought was a good reason to opine on RC Orders? -there will in my opinion never be unity among the 3 denominations -RC-Anglican-Lutheran-there is an issue of “female Priests” - so what is to be gained -most lUtherans want to remain Lutherans -where wwas one going with this-even the Orthodox and RC can not agree with each other
 
cmodrmac said:
two comments

Lutherans and Anglicans cannot receive the Eucharist at the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church rightly, does not believe in the holy orders of those communities. Lutherans and Anglicans are self ordained, same as all protestant ministers, and are not Apostolic in any way, shape, or form. While it is a wonderful thing that these communities believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the fact that they do not have valid Priesthoods means that Christ is “not” present in the Eucharist within these communities. It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to receive a false Eucharist at a Lutheran or Anglican community and it would be a mortal sin for Lutherans or Anglicans to receive the real Eucharist at a Catholic Church.

the above statement is mean spirited - inaccurate and offensive
the laying on of consecration of Priests by Bishops and consecration of Bishops by Bishopes has existed in an UNBROKEN LINE from the Apostles in the Anglican communion-the RC Church does not deny it

many threads have discussed Anglican orders -read any by GKC-the Catholic Church via the Pope-the Anglicans were not “self ordained” -that was not the issue with the RC Church and Anglican Orders it is from the Roman church view a matter of “form” - I will end this now

Point 2-I am perplexed by what the LUtherans thought was a good reason to opine on RC Orders? -there will in my opinion never be unity among the 3 denominations -RC-Anglican-Lutheran-there is an issue of “female Priests” - so what is to be gained -most lUtherans want to remain Lutherans -where wwas one going with this-even the Orthodox and RC can not agree with each other
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Personally, I believe that something much greater than mere human understanding and administration is guiding Christians. The obstacles of the past are diminishing; the obstacles of the present will be overcome as well. The future is Church unity.
 
cmodrmac said:
two comments

Lutherans and Anglicans cannot receive the Eucharist at the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church rightly, does not believe in the holy orders of those communities. Lutherans and Anglicans are self ordained, same as all protestant ministers, and are not Apostolic in any way, shape, or form. While it is a wonderful thing that these communities believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the fact that they do not have valid Priesthoods means that Christ is “not” present in the Eucharist within these communities. It would be a mortal sin for Catholics to receive a false Eucharist at a Lutheran or Anglican community and it would be a mortal sin for Lutherans or Anglicans to receive the real Eucharist at a Catholic Church.

the above statement is mean spirited - inaccurate and offensive
the laying on of consecration of Priests by Bishops and consecration of Bishops by Bishopes has existed in an UNBROKEN LINE from the Apostles in the Anglican communion-the RC Church does not deny it

many threads have discussed Anglican orders -read any by GKC-the Catholic Church via the Pope-the Anglicans were not “self ordained” -that was not the issue with the RC Church and Anglican Orders it is from the Roman church view a matter of “form” - I will end this now

Point 2-I am perplexed by what the LUtherans thought was a good reason to opine on RC Orders? -there will in my opinion never be unity among the 3 denominations -RC-Anglican-Lutheran-there is an issue of “female Priests” - so what is to be gained -most lUtherans want to remain Lutherans -where wwas one going with this-even the Orthodox and RC can not agree with each other
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Form and intent.

GKC
 
GKC said:
You presume correctly, as to my views on the Anglican orders/sacraments.

And, as I have said, over the years here (not meaning you would know it), the sad history of Apostolicae curae has been a hobby of mine for around 20 years; the whole intertwined tale of history, theology, personality and politics from Halifax and Portals first meeting in 1890, until the end of the Malines conversation in 1927.

Halifax’s French, as in his LEO XIII AND ANGLICAN ORDERS I can get through, well enough. What’s the challenge is Lacey’s Latin in his A ROMAN DIARY. I have to wait until my daughter, who taught Latin for 5 years, is around for that.

It is true that the impetus, both for the original commission, and the subsequent final vote of the Cardinals under the Holy Office, was greatly influenced by Herbert, Cardinal Vaughan (not some English Cardinals). It is a misunderstanding to look at the final decision of the whole affair as some how a divided one. The 8 man commission, it is true, was divided, as Hughes, and later Tavard, and the authors of an interesting collection of the Apostolicae curae related documents (ANGLICAN ORDERS: THE DOCUMENTS IN THE DEBATE, ed. Hill and Yarbnold, SJ) have detailed. But the 8 man commission was never charged with the decision, but of preparing advisory reports for the Cardinals, who, under the Holy Office, would make the decision. And that was unanimous (noting that Rampolla was absent).

I know of no evidence that there was a majority, plurality, or any other number of Cardinals, Europe wide, that favored the validity of Anglican Orders, though the histories certainly name a few who seemed sympathetic.

I recommend,as I always do, Fr. John J. Hughes’ two indispensable books ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID (which focuses on the history and personalities involved: who did what) and STEWARDS OF THE LORD (which focuses on theological issues). Also, one should read Francis Clark’s (at the time, Fr. Francis Clark, SJ) ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION, for the best exposition of the RC point: re: intent. And Fr. George Tavard’s A REVIEW OF ANGLICAN ORDERS is most useful, as is the intro and the documents provided in the Hill and Yarnold book (includes the vota of 6 of the 8 commissioners, plus a letter from a 7th, as well as other useful things. It is a product of the ARCIC from the late 1990s, but not to be scorned. One can see Hughes’ influence in the intro.

What I would say with respect to the circumstances in the 1890s, versus the 1970s, is that what the Anglican Communion, generally, has been up to over the past 40+ years, is making Apostolicae curae a prematurely prescient document, in its conclusion.

And I repeat: what the RCC has stated RCs should affirm (with reference to theological certainty) RCs should affirm. I know we agree, but it’s a mantra for me, on a number of points.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus *
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I too also have a Roman Diary, it is a book I’ve been meaning to read, just haven’t gotten around to it.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Any thoughts on the Lutheran Church proclaiming Catholic validity. Telling Lutheran laity it is OK to view Catholic priests as another source for spiritual needs including the Eucharist.
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Regarding the Lutheran Churches: do they now concede that a ministerial priesthood is necessary vis-a-vis the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass?
 
joe371 said:
Regarding the Lutheran Churches: do they now concede that a ministerial priesthood is necessary vis-a-vis the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass?
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From the Augsburg Confession:
Article V: Of the Ministry.
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1] That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2] the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3] the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake.
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4] They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.
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Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
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Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.
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I suppose the easy, and correct, answer is ‘Mostly.’ It’s important to keep in mind that we Lutherans don’t measure Apostolic Succession by the exact same rubrics that Roman Catholics do.
 
joe371 said:
Regarding the Lutheran Churches: do they now concede that a ministerial priesthood is necessary vis-a-vis the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass?
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Not the sacrifice of the Mass but via apostolic succession. Lutherans and Catholic share the same Eucharistic beliefs. Catholics have not validated Lutheran ministry but point us to the solution; apostolic succession.
 
GKC said:
I hope you have a former Latin magister/magistra in the family.

GKC
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Half asleep when I wrote that about the Roman Diary. No I cannot read or write Latin, however, we are lucky to have a classics professor in our parish, so hopefully I can pick his brains.
 
James82 said:
Half asleep when I wrote that about the Roman Diary. No I cannot read or write Latin, however, we are lucky to have a classics professor in our parish, so hopefully I can pick his brains.
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Sort of what I would have to do.

GKC
 
steido01 said:
From the Augsburg Confession:

I suppose the easy, and correct, answer is ‘Mostly.’ It’s important to keep in mind that we Lutherans don’t measure Apostolic Succession by the exact same rubrics that Roman Catholics do.
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👍
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Not the sacrifice of the Mass but via apostolic succession. Lutherans and Catholic share the same Eucharistic beliefs. Catholics have not validated Lutheran ministry but point us to the solution; apostolic succession.
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I understand. Thanks…🙂
 
Whew- I bet Pope Francis was biting his nails
over that one. And here he thought somehow St.
Peter had a say in it.
Lol!
 
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