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God bless
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bkovacs
Guest
Maybe more Lutherans will switch over to the Missouri Synod if they decide to follow the Episcopal Church.
B
bkovacs
Guest
I was outrageous when they started to ordain women.
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IowaJay
Guest
Iâll be in Minneapolis. Please pray for me and our assembly.
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emeraldcoast
Guest
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Dale_M
Guest
Which wouldnât necessarily be a good thing from the Catholic perspective. Remember, this is a church which filed charges against a pastor for participating in an ecumenical service in Yankee Stadium to commemorate 9/11.
christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/julyweb-only/7-29-31.0.html
I think you would find that the Missouri Synod doesnât hold the Catholic Church in high regard.
Pastor Gary and IowaJay may have more and better insight on this. With the laity, where it is convenient, yes, some will. With the clergy, it is a bit different. While we all believe, teach, and confess the same Book of Concord, there are differing opinions about a few things, and that keeps us from being in full communion. Those differences, and a historic level of animosity (perhaps too strong a word) might keep clergy away.
So, my sense is there could be a chance that a separate body would develop.
The LCMS prohibition against joint worship with those with whom we do not share full communion, I believe, was improperly applied to Pastor Benke. It did expose some of the lingering issues within the LCMS. Pastor Benke has since been reinstatedâŚ
stpeter-brooklyn.org/jsonline_lpro.html
âŚand in fact was an LCMS representative who met with the pope during his visit here last year.
catholicdigest.com/article/pope-to-lead-ecumenical-prayer-service-at-manhattan-parish
Sadly, there is some truth to this, as evidenced by our leadershipâs failure to approve the JDDJ, a huge mistake IMO. The irony about that is, while the ELCA, as a member of the LWF has been in the lead in dialogue with Rome (much to their credit), in many ways the LCMS is better positioned to reach agreement with Rome in a number of areas.
You, the assembly, and all of my Lutheran brothers and sisters in the ELCA have my fervent prayers. May the Holy Spirit be present and guide the assemblyâs decisions.
Jon
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GKC
Guest
Beats me. But Anglicans of the proper sort havenât been able get together, either, noticeably.Just wondering aloud, if liberal Anglicans and liberal Lutherans can get together, why is it that conservative (orthodox) Anglicans and conservative (orthodox) Lutherans canât?
Jon
There has been some talk about some orthodox Swedish Lutherans, and some traditionalist Anglicans getting together, but details elude me.
GKC
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IowaJay
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I would go for that.Just wondering aloud, if liberal Anglicans and liberal Lutherans can get together, why is it that conservative (orthodox) Anglicans and conservative (orthodox) Lutherans canât?
Jon
Thanks for the prayers.
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gcnuss
Guest
Many thanks to all who are offering their prayers. We (the ELCA) certainly need them.
Godâs blessings to all of you.
Godâs blessings to all of you.
J
Jolly_Joe
Guest
I see no situation where it doesnât pass. If it doesnât pass this time it will be like the last several times where it just keeps getting âstudiedâ and recommendations keep getting made.
Note for instance that there is no option to vote for âWe affirm our current position and call for the leaders to apply church discipline accordingly.â
Whatâs most likely going to happen is it will pass, it looks to me like the most liberal position is most likely going to pass. And then several things will happen.
Some individuals will leave the synod. Some congregations too, though many fewer congregations than individuals.
ELCA financial support will drop by at least 25% driving the synod into deep financial problems. Liberals push for change but they donât seem to give financially very much. Conservatives give until they get tired of supporting what seems their enemy. Many will stay, but quit giving or quit giving as much. Congregations too will find their budgets in severe trouble. Some will be unable to pay their mortgages. Others will eliminate positions. Some will fold.
Over time, a new ELCA will be, it will be maybe 2/3-3/4 the size of today. It will have fewer schools and seminaries, fewer congregations, fewer parishioners.
There are a few things stopping wholesale moves. For instance, the conservative synods do not have women pastors, this is a deal breaker for many ELCA members and congregations. That leaves only a couple of options for them and those places are not common, at least not yet.
There is also the problem of property. Many ELCA congregations have to be in another synod if they are going to leave the ELCA and retain their property. For those that do leave, LCMC is probably the one other synod that best fits most of them. LCMC is clearly going to expand in size. I would guess that some may decide to go with the Association of Free Lutherans, though for many ELCA congregations thatâs probably not actually a good fit. Just at this point the idea of not being under a domineering synod would sound good to a lot of ELCA members.
I some towns with several ELCA member congregations you are likely to see one congregation leave and member shuffle around in response.
Note for instance that there is no option to vote for âWe affirm our current position and call for the leaders to apply church discipline accordingly.â
Whatâs most likely going to happen is it will pass, it looks to me like the most liberal position is most likely going to pass. And then several things will happen.
Some individuals will leave the synod. Some congregations too, though many fewer congregations than individuals.
ELCA financial support will drop by at least 25% driving the synod into deep financial problems. Liberals push for change but they donât seem to give financially very much. Conservatives give until they get tired of supporting what seems their enemy. Many will stay, but quit giving or quit giving as much. Congregations too will find their budgets in severe trouble. Some will be unable to pay their mortgages. Others will eliminate positions. Some will fold.
Over time, a new ELCA will be, it will be maybe 2/3-3/4 the size of today. It will have fewer schools and seminaries, fewer congregations, fewer parishioners.
There are a few things stopping wholesale moves. For instance, the conservative synods do not have women pastors, this is a deal breaker for many ELCA members and congregations. That leaves only a couple of options for them and those places are not common, at least not yet.
There is also the problem of property. Many ELCA congregations have to be in another synod if they are going to leave the ELCA and retain their property. For those that do leave, LCMC is probably the one other synod that best fits most of them. LCMC is clearly going to expand in size. I would guess that some may decide to go with the Association of Free Lutherans, though for many ELCA congregations thatâs probably not actually a good fit. Just at this point the idea of not being under a domineering synod would sound good to a lot of ELCA members.
I some towns with several ELCA member congregations you are likely to see one congregation leave and member shuffle around in response.
J
Jon_Hus
Guest
Jolly Joe,
I cannot find any fault with what you are saying. Back when I was a member of an ELCA church, we lived in New Jersey and our church was the only one in the area. Now I live in NE PA and there are 5 ELCA churches just in my small town alone. I know several people who are ELCA Lutherans and it amazes me how much more important it is for them to be Lutheran than to be a Christian. In defense of that though, the ELCA churches here are not as liberal as the ones in NJ.
Having said that I totally agree with your analysis. The Lutherans in my area will almost certainly close a few and consolidate. The older generation will stay as long as possible but without being any better or different than the rest of the world, the young Lutherans will leave, stay home on Sunday and watch the ball game. I take no pleasure in this and actually Iâm surprised the ELCA is doing as well as it is given itâs downhill slide.
I cannot find any fault with what you are saying. Back when I was a member of an ELCA church, we lived in New Jersey and our church was the only one in the area. Now I live in NE PA and there are 5 ELCA churches just in my small town alone. I know several people who are ELCA Lutherans and it amazes me how much more important it is for them to be Lutheran than to be a Christian. In defense of that though, the ELCA churches here are not as liberal as the ones in NJ.
Having said that I totally agree with your analysis. The Lutherans in my area will almost certainly close a few and consolidate. The older generation will stay as long as possible but without being any better or different than the rest of the world, the young Lutherans will leave, stay home on Sunday and watch the ball game. I take no pleasure in this and actually Iâm surprised the ELCA is doing as well as it is given itâs downhill slide.
Couple of points, Jolly Joe.
1st, when you typed LCMC, did you mean LCMS (Missouri Synod)?
2nd, on finances. Even before we left the ELCA, we had stipulated that none of our offering would go to Chicago, that all of our givings were to be spent locally. My brother has also done that for many years. Reason? The political stance s taken by their public policy advocacy department.
3rd, for the laity, most people will find little difference in worship or theology between ELCA and LCMS, except our position on women in the clergy. The old joke is; the further away from St. Louis and Chicago, the less difference there is between ELCA and LCMS churches.
Jon
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Hesychios
Guest
Didnât the ELCA start as a faction of the LCMS? I seem to remember something like that when I was younger.
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IowaJay
Guest
Yes and no.
The ELCA was formed in 1987 as a result of the merger of three Lutheran church bodies in the US: The American Lutheran Church (ALC), the Lutheran Church in America (LCA), and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC). The ALC and the LCA had about 2 1/2 million members apiece, and have never been related to the Missouri Synod (except for a brief period in the 60s and 70s were the ALC and LCMS had altar and pulpit sharing). The AELC, however, was a group of about 100,000 former LCMS members who split from the LCMS due to theological controversies in the early 70s.
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IowaJay
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Iâll answer for Jolly Joe if thatâs ok
LCMC is the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. As I understand it, they are a federation of former ELCA churches who started breaking off the early part of this decade due to various differences, including the agreement with the Episcopalians. Many were a part of the âWord Aloneâ movement.
The LCMC is a viable alternative for disaffected ELCAâers who are (1) Of low church backgrounds, and (2) More conservative than the ELCA on issues such as homosexuality, but less conservative than the LCMS on matters such as womenâs ministry.
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Hesychios
Guest
just to expand on this a little. These different groups of American Lutherans trace their roots back to dfifferent ethnic and geographic European foundings.
Goodness, Jay. I had forgotten all about that group, well, the name anyway. Thanks.
Jon
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Jolly_Joe
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- No, LCMC. Not many congregations would be able to go to LCMS, unless maybe they leave the pastor behind. The differences in how the scriptures and the Book of Concord are handled pretty much means very few congregations will go LCMS. The most visible thing to many laypersons is the women pastors but the fundamental things are actually the higher criticism of the Bible in ELCA vs the historical grammatical hermaneutic in LCMS, and the LCMSâ requirement of a quia subscription to the Book of Concord at least by the clergy.
LCMC basically says ELCA is right, it is just now going too far.
- Finances. Yes, you arenât alone, thatâs why ELCA has actually been having continuing financial problems, giving has been gradually going down. Iâm just thinking that there is going to be a sharp drop after August.
- It is hard to tell the difference sometimes in the salt water districts, but yes, to the person in the pews the womenâs ordination is the most visible. The worship service itself is similar, but the theology is different and is getting further apart. Itâs really pretty hard to take two groups with two such divergent views of the bible and say they are similar at all.
You could mention that many of the Lutherans overseas that are currently in communion with the ELCA will break over this but I donât think many if any actually care about that.
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