Lutherans, Mary, and her perpetual virginity

[AugustTherese]

You can stop trying to tell me what my own Confessions mean. From Ap. XI: “Excommunication is also pronounced against the openly wicked - those who live in manifest vices, fornication, adultery, etc. and the despisers of the Sacraments.” This would include those who live in open, continued, unrepentant support of murder.

“For Christians who are of weak faith, diffident, troubled, and heartily terrified because of the greatness and number of their sins, and think that in this their great impurity they are not worthy of this precious treasure and the benefits of Christ, and who feel and lament their weakness of faith, and from their hearts desire that they may serve God with stronger, more joyful faith and pure obedience, they are the truly worthy guests for whom this highly venerable Sacrament.” - The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, VII. The Holy Supper, p. 69

I wasn’t referring to your Confession’s excommunication norms. I was referring to your Confessions teaching of receiving Holy Communion no matter what sins they have committed.

 

[JonNC]

I wasn’t referring to your Confession’s excommunication norms. I was referring to your Confessions teaching of receiving Holy Communion no matter what sins they have committed.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

It isn’t the sins committed, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is desire for forgiveness, seeking His mercy, and the strengthening of faith that comes with receiving His body and blood.

 

[JonNC]

I wasn’t referring to your Confession’s excommunication norms. I was referring to your Confessions teaching of receiving Holy Communion no matter what sins they have committed

You asked what he would excommunicate her for! It sounds like you were referring to his excommunication norms.

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

I wasn’t referring to your Confession’s excommunication norms. I was referring to your Confessions teaching of receiving Holy Communion no matter what sins they have committed

You asked what he would excommunicate her for! It sounds like you were referring to his excommunication norms.

Rhetorical. It’s a contradiction to admit someone to Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin, but excommunicate them for a mortal sin, unrepented.

 

[steido01]

to admit someone the Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin

Why does your communion do this with Nancy?

 

[AugustTherese]

Why does your communion do this with Nancy?

Because personal culpability is different than mere, grave sin. You, nor I, know if Nancy is in a state of mortal sin.

 

[JonNC]

Rhetorical. It’s a contradiction to admit someone to Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin, but excommunicate them for a mortal sin, unrepented.

Then why does the Catholic Church allow it?
Virtually every Lutheran mass I ever attended included an order of Confession and Absolution. I was taught not to receive if I did not confess.

But you know this because you were Lutheran for some time ? Right?

 

[AugustTherese]

If we confess our sins

Exactly. You need to confess your sins to Jesus Christ through His ministerial priests if you want to worthily partake in His Body and Blood.

 

[AugustTherese]

Then why does the Catholic Church allow it?

She doesn’t. You do not know someone’s personal culpability.

 

[AugustTherese]

Exactly. That is precisely what Lutheranism has always taught. You know this. You were Lutheran

I never once confessed my sins to anyone during my 25 years as a WELS/ELS Lutheran. Lutherans do not have priests, they have ‘pastors’.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Then why does the Catholic Church allow it?

She doesn’t. You do not know someone’s personal culpability.

You’ve spent the last number of posts questioning Lutherans in this way. Now you want to accuse? Really?

 

[AugustTherese]

Virtually every Lutheran mass I ever attended included an order of Confession and Absolution

Every service you’ve attended included a general confession (silent/said as a group) in which the pastor ‘absolved’ everyone simultaneously. That is hardly confessing your personal, grave sins to a ministerial priest.

Don’t patronize me with this, “But you know this becase you were Lutheran for some time”. You are equivocating with your words and trying to compare Lutheran services and ‘sacraments’ with Catholic Masses and Sacraments; it doesn’t work no matter how much you want it to.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Exactly. That is precisely what Lutheranism has always taught. You know this. You were Lutheran

I never once confessed my sins to anyone during my 25 years as a WELS/ELS Lutheran. Lutherans do not have priests, they have ‘pastors’.

Really? They never had the order of confession and Absolution, led by the Pastor, during the service and prior to communion.

Here is a WELS church’s Order of worship:
Our services typically follow an order of service such as:
Prayer before service and musical prelude
Greeting
Opening Hymn
Confession and Absolution
Lessons and singing of Psalms
Children’s Sermon
Hymn of the Day
Sermon
Reading of the Creed Offering Prayer
Communion (on 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month)
Blessing

http://www.glcwels.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=180020126&sec_id=180003152

 

[JonNC]

Every service you’ve attended included a general confession (silent/said as a group) in which the pastor ‘absolved’ everyone simultaneously. That is hardly confessing your personal, grave sins to a ministerial priest.

Now you are trying to impose your practice. That Lutherans practice it differently doesn’t mean it isn’t practice.

Don’t patronize me with this, “But you know this becase you were Lutheran for some time”. You are equivocating with your words and trying to compare Lutheran services and ‘sacraments’ with Catholic Masses and Sacraments; it doesn’t work no matter how much you want it to.

You do know it, and your line of posts was a deception. You know that Lutherans practice Confession and Absolution

 

[AugustTherese]

Now you are trying to impose your practice. That Lutherans practice it differently doesn’t mean it isn’t practice.

Okay, that’s fair. I’m sorry if I alluded to that. I just meant that Lutherans do not confess their sins out loud to a pastor and that pastor personally absolves them in the Person of Christ.

You know that Lutherans practice Confession and Absolution

Again, to me, that is not confessing sins. If there is not an act of contrition, how would any Lutheran pastor know when to forgive sins, or retain them?

 

[AugustTherese]

Article XI: Of Confession.
Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.

The Lutheran teaching that ‘an enumeration of all sins in not necessary’, yeah I am familiar with it. That is known as not having the Sacrament of Confession. The Sacrament requires an act of contrition for the sins one has committed to be ‘privately absolved’. What act of contrition do you use?

No need to confess your individual sins, let me just absolve you …I’m pretty sure that is not what Christ meant when giving the Apostles and their successors the authority to forgive and retain sins. Which Lutheran pastor has ever retained a sin?

 

[JonNC]

Okay, that’s fair. I’m sorry if I alluded to that. I just meant that Lutherans do not confess their sins out loud to a pastor and that pastor personally absolves them in the Person of Christ.

Thank you.
I would contend that they do, that public confession is indeed confessing sins to the priest. And of course, private confession is always available.
In either case, the pastor/priest acts in persona Christi in granting Absolution.

Again, to me, that is not confessing sins. If there is not an act of contrition, how would any Lutheran pastor know when to forgive sins, or retain them?

That would be a difference in practice and beliefs regarding what constitutes confession. Obviously, Lutherans and Catholics have different understandings.

 

[steido01]

Here are two forms of Lutheran Private Confession & Absolution:

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Of course, if someone was raised Lutheran and properly catechized, they would know about these.

 

[rose321]

his thread requires your urgent contribution…

Respectfully toward, suggestion only
Lutherans Mary and her perpetual virginity, in referring them to Dr Scott Hahn, Bishop Robert Barron, whether they heard of either?

Dr Scott Hahn has many Books, CD;s and videos on Blessed Mother Mary>>

Hail Holy Queen
The Virgin Mary Revealed through Scripture
Understanding the Scriptures
Bible and Virgin Mary
The Lamb" Supper
so many more highly recommend > Hail Holy Queen

Bishop Robert Barron he is on line with many videos and Word on Fire
The Queen\ ship of Mary
Mary is a Warrior Queen
The Mystery of Mary the Mother of God> Word on Fire
Easy to watch and not very long videos

Ask in prayer , and seek out all truths and where ever those truths may lead you, knowing at times such unknown Truth’s can be painful. Study Study to show thy self approved!

One is not forcing one to accept Blessed Mary, but one has given then 2 excellent sources to begin with>>>>> Dr Scott Hahn>>so one can come to >>know>>Blessed Mother Mary.
Dr Scott Hahn has many videos on Blessed Mother Mary on line to watch.

Responsibility of all, is yours to seek, ask in prayer, to question, to examine and follow where ever the Truth leads you. Love Blessings toward all >>>on ones Life’s Journey! >>>Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Pure Holy Love and ones faithful devotion to cannot be forced, one cannot Love, what they first do not >>Know<<

Peace

 

[AugustTherese]

Of course, if someone was raised Lutheran and properly catechized, they would know about these

Not every Lutheran is a LCMS Lutheran, or Confessional Lutheran. I advise you to look at the picture of the ELCA female pastor and ask yourself if she adheres to the Book of Concord.