Lutherans on Catholic Eucharist

[blueadept]

However since I do not confess certain elements of the RCC I do not do this. Although I have attended RCC mass and received the blessing but not the elements.

God Bless

That’s very honorable.

 

[Mberg3]

We have in our orders elders and deacons and the one minister. It is the minister only who may consecrate the elements but the elders may help distribute them, although in my church the Minister only distributes the bread. As far as the title of “Priest” I think my diocese would have no problem calling the ministers priests but in general do not because some attach a negative connotation to the word. I don’t and so tend to use the words interchangeably.

As far as vacationing priests go, when our priest goes on vacation the elements are have only been distributed by another ordained priest of our diocese who will visit our congregation. I have never seen any other practice although I have been told that we do have retired priests who are called deacons in our diocese and they may consecrate the elements, but elders in our diocese are lay people and are never to do so.

We clearly distinguish between those who are ordained to consecrate the elements and those who are not and since the Body and Blood are present in the RCC mass and the Priests are rightly ordained I do not see a doctrinal reason why we may not receive communion from a RCC Priest as well. However since I do not confess certain elements of the RCC I do not do this. Although I have attended RCC mass and received the blessing but not the elements.

God Bless

The WELS is a lot more influenced by Reformed Theology, and for this reason tends to treat the Lords Supper in a less reverential manner than many other Lutheran bodies. They also do not have Deacons, or Diocese. To get an official view you can always read the official doctrine as stated in an earlier post of mine. I am no longer a WELS, but i assumed that most Lutherans had similar teachings on this. I am coming to find out there is some difference in this.

 

[saveusfromhell]

am i right in thinking that lutherans don’t beleive in transubstanation but consubstanation
instead? excuse my spelling.

 

[Anthony_V]

We call the Lord’s Supper by various names, the Holy Eucharist is one of them. As far as Catholics having a valid Communion in Lutheran eyes, it comes from the fact that Catholics believe in the Real Presence in the bread and wine. It is the sacrifice by the priest that give Lutherans the heebie jeebies. By the same token, when it comes to the Calvinist Churches, they do not have a valid communion because Christ’s Body is confined to Heaven.

I’m still a little confused here. For a Catholic, the Holy Sacrifice of the mass is, in fact, the Lord’s supper, because it is a re–presentation (not representation) of the sacrifice at Calvary, which is the completion of the Passover as the paschal sacrifice. It is the Real Presence that folds time on itself as the paschal sacrifice is present, and thus we are present at Calvary. So, not a new sacrifice being offered, but Christ offering the same sacrifice of himself to God on our behalf through the priest who is acting in Persona Christ (the person of Christ). Think of things in a sense that they are devoid of time. The substance of the Eucharist is not restricted in time.

 

[hn160]

am i right in thinking that lutherans don’t beleive in transubstanation but consubstanation
instead? excuse my spelling.

As it has been posted on other threads, Lutherans do not believe in either transubstanation or consubstanation, but instead to us it is a Mystery how it happens. We just take Christ at His Word when He said “This is …”. Catholics and Calvinist always want to accuse us of believing in consubstantiation.

 

[DarrenOglesby]

I believe they do. I am a LCMS Pastor’s nephew. Well he is not active pastor, but he continues to fill in at some church’s. I always stayed at his house during the summer, and I went to church with them on Sunday. When I started driving, I went to Catholic Mass, then I went to their Lutheran Church. I loved the service with the organ music.

 

[saveusfromhell]

As it has been posted on other threads, Lutherans do not believe in either transubstanation or consubstanation, but instead to us it is a Mystery how it happens. We just take Christ at His Word when He said “This is …”. Catholics and Calvinist always want to accuse us of believing in consubstantiation.

i can see why and i’m not being flipant. when you say you take him at his word "

this is my body

" it appears to someone as uneducated, as me, in your views, that it has to be one or the other, but maybe i misunderstood you. either way no need to go into it, i generaly don’t enter this section and i accept that you have a full explanation of your belief

 

[ndismyhome]

In the Lutheran Confessions, it is made clear that anyone with a rite (note: not right) call may preside at the Lord’s Supper. Secondly, the very words of Christ must be proclaimed during the communion celebration (i.e. the Words of Institution) in order to make Christ’s promise given at the last supper present and active. If these two things are done, the Sacrament would be “valid” and “licit” according to us.

Personaly [sic], as an ELCA Lutheran I have travelled many places in the world and happily received the Sacrament in Catholic Churches.

As an ELCA vicar, I advise you not to do this. Even if your personal belief allows you to commune where ever you wish, you should exercise discretion and follow the rules of the church you find yourself in at the time. It is very rude and very inconsiderate (as well as theologically suspect) to claim for yourself the right to commune where you will. Remember, Christ’s invitation is a privilege, not a right. Secondly, even in our denomination, we hold that there is an office of Word and Sacrament that can exercise the office of the keys and which can excommunicate (literally, deny the Lord’s Supper) people. So, even by our own theology, you’ve done a grave thing. Repent and seek the Lord’s forgiveness for usurping the pastoral office for your own devices.

 

[giggen83]

It is not a matter of what your conscience tells, it is a matter of being a good guest. If I visit someone’s house, and they ask me not to go upstairs, I don’t do upstairs. The Catholic Church invites all to come worship, but as a Lutheran, they ask us not to partake in their sacrament. It is simply good manners. What their reason is is not relevent (its the same reason the LCMS has close communion).

Just as importantly, it seems a bit surreptitious to do so. I, frankly, don’t find that to be a good foundation for receiving Christ’s body and blood.

Jon

OOOps!!! And all these 83 years I was under the impression that it was “God’s House” and not mine or yours, and that his “Welcome” (Mathew. 11:28,etc.) was for all.

 

[ndismyhome]

OOOps!!! And all these 83 years I was under the impression that it was “God’s House” and not mine or yours, and that his “Welcome” (Mathew. 11:28,etc.) was for all.

Matthew 28 says nothing about Eucharist. Secondly, the welcome is for all of the Faithful. All people are invited to Baptism, all the Baptized are invited to the Lord’s Supper. Thirdly, it is “God’s house”, but the steward is the pastor. It is his or her duty to regulate who comes to the table. Why do you take seriously the texts about welcome and inclusiveness but not texts about spiritual harm? (cf 1 Corinthians 10). You should read the Lutheran confessions on the topic and the relevant Biblical texts. If you have already, read them again.

 

[bogeydogg]

i can see why and i’m not being flipant. when you say you take him at his word “” it appears to someone as uneducated, as me, in your views, that it has to be one or the other, but maybe i misunderstood you. either way no need to go into it, i generaly don’t enter this section and i accept that you have a full explanation of your belief

The diocese I belong to, which from what I can tell has a similar if not identical teaching to LCMS on this, does not formulate how the Body and Blood are present in the Mass at all. There is no doctrinal stance concerning transubstantiation or consubstantiation we are simply dogmatic in our confession that when Christ said, “This is my body” He did not stutter. Therefore we take Him at His word and make the same confession.

The how and why is not our concern. It is enough to know the Lord identified the elements and commanded us to take them when we gather. Aside from that what more needs to be known?

God Bless

 

[hn160]

OOOps!!! And all these 83 years I was under the impression that it was “God’s House” and not mine or yours, and that his “Welcome” (Mathew. 11:28,etc.) was for all.

The LC-MS practices closed Communion, all are welcomed to attend the Divine Service, but only Lutherans, who are in fellowship with the LC-MS should take communion at our church. The reason for this is that it predisposes that everyone communing at the altar rail is of like mind in doctrine and that no one receives it to their harm.

 

[giggen83]

Matthew 28 says nothing about Eucharist. Secondly, the welcome is for all of the Faithful. All people are invited to Baptism, all the Baptized are invited to the Lord’s Supper. Thirdly, it is “God’s house”, but the steward is the pastor. It is his or her duty to regulate who comes to the table. Why do you take seriously the texts about welcome and inclusiveness but not texts about spiritual harm? (cf 1 Corinthians 10). You should read the Lutheran confessions on the topic and the relevant Biblical texts. If you have already, read them again.

Thank you all for your admonishments (“Repent”… “read”… "take seriously,"etc. Yes, 1 Cor.10 does refer to the Sacrament…verse 17: “Because there is one loaf of bread, ALL OF US, though many, are ONE body, for we ALL share the same loaf.” Yes, I choose texts…just as everyone else does… For me, seeking the spirit of the Gospel , as I understand it (isn’t that what brought denominations into the mix?) trumps all kinds of do’s and don’ts…and that’s the way I read it, and seek to live it. I will definitely “Repent” but not of using the head God put on my shoulders…and try not to "major in minors,"either, as someone put it. The Lord Be With y’ALL !!:

 

[ndismyhome]

Giggen83 -You miss my point. I am trying to make you see that what you are saying is not Lutheran. I don’t care what you do with your personal life, but if you claim to be an ELCA Lutheran, you make it my business as a person who finds himself in the pastoral office. Your understanding of what communion is goes against the Formula of Concord. Read it.

Secondly, I’m glad you like the part about being one body, but who is Paul writing to? Large groups of people of myriad faiths? or, perhaps, he is writing to a Christian congregation (if you get into the “multiple Christianities” thing, this one congregation is a particular denomination). The Lord’s Supper is for Christians, and Paul makes it clear that even these can commune unworthily. I am glad that you feel so in tune with God that you know better than 2000 years of theology and all of the Lutheran reformers. True unity is wrought by God and is destroyed by human beings’ selfish misuse of the Sacrament. When you commune unworthily, or see your own selfish ambition as superior to the congregation you worship with, you introduce that harm to this unity. Your view Communion leads to harm to the very thing which you so strongly emphasize!

Furthermore, just because we all “pick texts” and, by our sinful state, emphasize some teachings of the Faith over others, does not mean we should aim to do this. This is tantamount to standing in one place while painting a fence and being OK with only painting those surfaces you can reach. It is nothing short of laziness masquerading as academia.

Thirdly, the proper reception is not a “minor”. This is the center of Christian worship, including ours. If you do this in an irreverent or blasphemous way you are literally doing harm to the body of our Lord. There are few things in the Faith more central and important than this. So long as you see the Lord’s Supper as a nice mid-service snack of community, you are missing the point of the entire Christian service, to your own detriment.

Finally, the “spirit” of the Gospel “as you see it” is not the place to check your doctrine. You check doctrine against the Communion of Saints, which is the Church catholic through all time, which is found most clearly in the Scriptures, the Creeds, and the Fathers. If what you say goes against the teaching of the Christian faith, YOU are wrong. Also, the Gospel is wonderful, but you are also still a sinner and as such must pay heed to the Law which still applies to you. If you are told by some authority, such as St. Paul, to do something in a particular way, why would you not heed him or her?

 

[giggen83]

Oy vey.Thanks for your efforts at chastisement. I am not going to address all of your rules/comments, other than to state that whereas the Formula of Concord repeatedly states, “we reject and condemn” and that it is “A Thorough, Pure, Correct, and Final Restatement…etc.” I will not give such credit. The times they are a-changin’ and so am I as I quoted James Russell Lowell in a previous post.
." I consider the ELCA to be a “Big Tent”-big enough for both you and me and my/your fellow congregants… For e.g. I supported the right to ordination for women & gays long before the ELCA decided it was right and proper. Was I therefore out of order? Apparently, according to your take, but I saw it as part of my mission to work for the same.You may see this another way, and I can live with that.(probably would not be a good thing for you to be my Pastor!)
Bottom line, for me: Keep my eyes wide open, critique everything, and seek to follow Christ, and “be ready for whatever comes…” (Luke 12:35)…I think I have stated where I
am in the Faith and any further posts would be just going 'round & 'round. So, be my Guest and have the last word… Again, "The Lord Be With Y’all.!!

 

[Fuelman]

I just turned 53 young, not so old, huh, and have been suffering from erectile dysfunction for more than 8 years. Different techniques and medications did not help me or were useful just for a while and then the problem returned. Only with Viagra Super Active I could obtain a perfect intercourse and reliable effect. I was enough hard and it lasted for long to never complain about. Libido and intensive climaxes were much better with viagra jelly than any other medicine

 

[JonNC]

I just turned 53 young, not so old, huh, and have been suffering from erectile dysfunction for more than 8 years. Different techniques and medications did not help me or were useful just for a while and then the problem returned. Only with Viagra Super Active I could obtain a perfect intercourse and reliable effect. I was enough hard and it lasted for long to never complain about. Libido and intensive climaxes were much better with viagra jelly than any other medicine

Reported

 

[Fuelman]

why you don’t want buy it dude ??

 

[JonNC]

why you don’t want buy it dude ??

It is irrelevent as to whether or not I want to buy it. What is relevent is that CAF, and I suspect none of its members, doesn’t want you to sell it (or anything) here. That’s not the purpose of the forum.

Jon

 

[Conor7]

It is not a matter of what your conscience tells, it is a matter of being a good guest. If I visit someone’s house, and they ask me not to go upstairs, I don’t do upstairs. The Catholic Church invites all to come worship, but as a Lutheran, they ask us not to partake in their sacrament. It is simply good manners. What their reason is is not relevent (its the same reason the LCMS has close communion).

Just as importantly, it seems a bit surreptitious to do so. I, frankly, don’t find that to be a good foundation for receiving Christ’s body and blood.

Jon

giggen83, I agree with JonNC. I wouldn’t dream of receiving communion in a Catholic Church because I want to be a good guest.

I will go further and say, just because you consider your host ungracious and inhospitable, that does not warrant you being a lousy guest.