Lutherans - Roman Catholics/Points for Discussion

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;6509331:

No real disagreement here.** The sacraments are one of the means by which the Holy Spirit works to create faith in the heart of a dead sinner.**

Very impressive statement; How then does the “Holy Spirit work to create faith in the heart of a dead sinner”? Can you explain how this can be, when faith alone has not yet entered the picture yet?

This is partly why the issue of justification is slightly different in a Catholic/Lutheran context than the context of say, Baptist/Catholic. There is no real dispute on the nature of sacramental theology within our respective churches. Nor do they contradict in any way the doctrine of sola fide.

I beg to differ here, because without the proper disposition of sacramentality we can easily neglect the presence of Jesus Christ. It may be here, where the rubber meets the road?

 

[TriuneUnity]

TriuneUnity;6509346:

Very impressive statement; How then does the “Holy Spirit work to create faith in the heart of a dead sinner”? Can you explain how this can be, when faith alone has not yet entered the picture yet?

Not sure exactly what you are asking here? A dead sinner is precisely that, spiritually dead. They are at enmity with God and desire nothing of Him. The Holy Spirit, working through the preaching of the gospel and/or the sacraments, brings the sinner to spiritual life and gives him faith. Not sure if that is what you were asking.

I beg to differ here, because without the proper disposition of sacramentality we can easily neglect the presence of Jesus Christ. It may be here, where the rubber meets the road?

What I mean to say is this. A Baptist, or a Presbyterian, divorces the gift of faith from the administration of the sacraments. For example, they see baptism as a dedication or something similar. We do not.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

[The work of Christ is the alone ground of our justification. Faith in the work of Christ is the alone instrument that unites us to Christ. Faith is given by the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments. The Word is preached and the Sacraments are administered by the Church.

Spoken like a true Catholic Let’s summarize briefly; “Faith alone saves”.
Yet you have added the Work of Christ, sacraments, preached Word, adminstration of the sacraments, the Gospel, Church.

So ones faith alone does not save, because “Faith” cometh (not alone) by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Adminstration of the sacraments is freely given, whereby from these Works of Christ, one can be saved. We agree no man can save himself, only Jesus Christ can save man. But how does one come to be saved through Jesus Christ? Faith alone does not suffice. True Faith can heal, faith can mature, faith can move mountains. But Faith alone cannot save. Peter’s faith alone gives witness to this that faith alone cannot save, because his faith failed by denying Jesus Christ 3 times.
[/quote]

 

[TriuneUnity]

Spoken like a true Catholic Let’s summarize briefly; “Faith alone saves”.
Yet you have added the Work of Christ, sacraments, preached Word, adminstration of the sacraments, the Gospel, Church.

That is because the term “faith alone” has a context. It does not mean faith apart from Christ, the sacraments, the Church, or the Scriptures. What it does mean is that faith is the alone instrument whereby the Christian is placed into union with Christ. But faith alone is only part of the discussion regarding justification.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If a sinner is spiritually dead, then how can he be saved by “faith alone” if he has no faith to save him?

Did not Jesus come

to save sinners? did not Jesus come to heal the sick?. Without the presence of Jesus, no one can be saved on faith alone. Jesus comes to us sinners in his sacraments, we grow in faith by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

What I mean to say is this. A Baptist, or a Presbyterian, divorces the gift of faith from the administration of the sacraments. For example, they see baptism as a dedication or something similar. We do not.

Wooohh hang on there; Iam of a simple mind, introducing Baptist, Presbyterian theology, will confuse me in the Sola fide and Justification understandings. So we have an understanding that in the Sacraments the Trinity is present? When the “finger of God” comes upon us to drive out our demons;

Luke 11:20
But if it is by the finger of God that (I) drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

[mark_a]

Jon is Missouri Synod. I was born and raised Missouri Synod, but have since joined a Wisconsin Synod congregation.

Interesting, can you tell us why?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That is because the term “faith alone” has a context. It does not mean faith apart from Christ, the sacraments, the Church, or the Scriptures. What it does mean is that faith is the alone instrument whereby the Christian is placed into union with Christ. But faith alone is only part of the discussion regarding justification.

So now we add Justification to faith alone? How is a Lutheran Justified with faith alone?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Very impressive statement; How then does the “Holy Spirit work to create faith in the heart of a dead sinner”? Can you explain how this can be, when faith alone has not yet entered the picture yet?

Because that is partly what the Holy Spirit does. He places the gift of faith in the heart of a person who doesn’t have it. A person without faith is dead in their trespasses and sins. To use an analogy, imagine that every sinner is Lazarus before he was raised from the dead. This is what the Holy Spirit does; raises sinners from spiritual death to spiritual life. This is called regeneration, the new birth, etc. It ordinarily coincides with Baptism.

Wooohh hang on there; Iam of a simple mind, introducing Baptist, Presbyterian theology, will confuse me in the Sola fide and Justification understandings. So we have an understanding that in the Sacraments the Trinity is present? When the “finger of God” comes upon us to drive out our demons;

Luke 11:20
But if it is by the finger of God that (I) drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Yes. The Trinity is absolutely present in the Sacraments. When a person is baptized, they are receiving the Holy Spirit into their hearts. When a person receives the Lord’s Supper, he is receiving the true Body and Blood of Christ. When a person hears the words of Absolution from the priest/pastor, he is hearing the words of Christ absolving him of his sins. None of these are symbolic actions. God is really working through them.

And OK, I’ll leave the Baptists and Presbyterians out I only brought them in for comparison. We are a sacramental church.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Interesting, can you tell us why?

Sure, mark. The LCMS congregations in my area have moved away from the historic liturgy and toward contemporary worship. The WELS parish here is very liturgical. It was mostly a matter of preference based on that.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So now we add Justification to faith alone? How is a Lutheran Justified with faith alone?

A person receives justification from Christ when he/she believes in Christ.

 

[mark_a]

One thing I have wondered about is the WELS teaching about contraception and if it causes friction with other Lutherans.

The WELS website used to have a statement condemning contraception to the point that even the Catholic view of NFP was wrong. I am no longer able to access that page.

Has WELS changed this teaching?

 

[TriuneUnity]

One thing I have wondered about is the WELS teaching about contraception and if it causes friction with other Lutherans.

The WELS website used to have a statement condemning contraception to the point that even the Catholic view of NFP was wrong. I am no longer able to access that page.

Has WELS changed this teaching?

To the best of my knowledge, they have not. They did recently redesign the website. A lot of the articles, especially in the Q&A areas are no longer there. Your best bet is to search the site for “contraception.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Because that is partly what the Holy Spirit does. He places the gift of faith in the heart of a person who doesn’t have it. A person without faith is dead in their trespasses and sins. To use an analogy, imagine that every sinner is Lazarus before he was raised from the dead. This is what the Holy Spirit does; raises sinners from spiritual death to spiritual life. This is called regeneration, the new birth, etc. It ordinarily coincides with Baptism.

I am puzzled here? You said this in post 37 “It is impossible for a person to receive the gift of faith apart from the ordinary workings of the Church, whether by means of word or sacrament”.

When does “Faith alone” enter the picture here to be saved? When you just stated that baptism “regenerates” which is a very Catholic teaching which gives new birth what Jesus calls being born (anothen) again. In this baptism one is saved, this persons faith did not save them?

Yes. The Trinity is absolutely present in the Sacraments. When a person is baptized, they are receiving the Holy Spirit into their hearts. When a person receives the Lord’s Supper, he is receiving the true Body and Blood of Christ. When a person hears the words of Absolution from the priest/pastor, he is hearing the words of Christ absolving him of his sins. None of these are symbolic actions. God is really working through them.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I am puzzled here? You said this in post 37 “It is impossible for a person to receive the gift of faith apart from the ordinary workings of the Church, whether by means of word or sacrament”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Then I am to conclude from your statement that the blind mans Faith alone never saved him, because he never had faith to save himself, until he encounters Jesus Christ alone who saves, not “faith alone”. The blind sinner is saved without faith, and only then comes to faith after he is saved.

 

[Soler]

I can’t really be bothered right now coming up with any original argument , but here are some quotes from the Catechism which might help the Lutherans here understand the Catholic teachings regarding justification and salvation better (I have bolded what I consider to be the most important parts, which you can glance at if you are short of time):

From a section on Justification

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

(to be continued)

 

[Soler]

(continued)

From a section on Baptism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that **Baptism is necessary for salvation.**60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 **For *catechumens ***who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

On Atheism

Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances.

On Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Then I am to conclude from your statement that the blind mans Faith alone never saved him, because he never had faith to save himself, until he encounters Jesus Christ alone who saves, not “faith alone”. The blind sinner is saved without faith, and only then comes to faith after he is saved.

Of course. We are Christians, not Faith-ians. My faith doesn’t save me. Christ saves me. My faith is what unites me to Christ, though, and how I receive His justification. He gives me a gift, and gives me the grace to accept it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I can’t really be bothered right now coming up with any original argument , but here are some quotes from the Catechism which might help the Lutherans here understand the Catholic teachings regarding justification and salvation better (I have bolded what I consider to be the most important parts, which you can glance at if you are short of time):

Haha… Whose argument is original anyway? And if it is, it usually isn’t good.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

Agreed.

"Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

Disagree. Justification is the full remission of sins wherein man is placed into a right standing with his God. Sanctification is the ongoing process of the renewal of the inner man, which is begun with justification and ends with glorification.

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

I agree with the bolded parts…disagree with the unbolded.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith.

It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

This would be the main point of contention, I think. Or, at the very least, a large part of it. Justification makes us legally just before God’s judgment seat. It does not make us inwardly just. It is hard to justify the ungodly, when only the godly are justified.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

The renewal of regeneration and the ongoing sanctification process establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom.

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

I would mostly agree with this. Except I wouldn’t call it justification.

 

[TriuneUnity]

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

I agree.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

I agree, inasmuch as someone who dies for the faith we would presume has faith and is therefore just and will be received into heaven.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Agreed, minus the charity.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

The way known to God is the way revealed by God. He offers His grace and forgiveness through the word and the sacraments exclusively.

63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

Disagree. Man, apart from faith in Christ, is under the Law. In order to be saved, he must be 100% obedient to the Law. Which, since man is fallen, is impossible.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Agreed. The Roman Church is wise not to make any statements here since Scripture does not.