Lutherans: The King and the Royal Steward

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dave, Catholics don’t base their understanding of infallibility on the keys. As you note, they are symbols of the authority invested uniquely in Peter. Sure, the other apostles had similar authority, but only one was the chief shepherd or royal steward over the entire House of David ruled by Jesus.

The basis for our understanding of infallibility is found in other verses.
You might want to talk to the people at Catholic Answers then:

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

“Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19)…” Sure Catholics pull in other verses as well to try to support this claim, but you can’t say “Catholics don’t base their understanding of infallibility on the keys.” Certainly some do.
 
I already addressed the connection to Isaiah 22 in post #42. Peter is a proper “Eliakim”–for about two verses–but ends up being a “Shebnah” in the story. This repeats the literary pattern followed in regards to Peter in the Gospel according to Matthew; Peter starts off well, but ends poorly. Being called a Satan by Jesus is ending poorly. How would you interpret Jesus’ remarks if he called you a Satan?
Excuse me but you are in error …Peter is not another Shebna. Jesus does not remove Peter - in fact he places Peter back into his leadership role …first after Jesus rebukes Peter in his promise to pray for Peter’s return so that Peter may strengthen the others and then before Jesus’ Ascension where Jesus helps Peter reverse his three fold denial by asking “Peter do you love me?” Three times …followed 3 times with a singular command to Peter to feed and tend the sheep (shepherd the shepherds) and feed the lambs (the faithful - the church - the people in f God).

We read the whole of God’s word …not mere portions that support a view …

Of course Christ instituted offices that are constant through time … Its an apostolic organic and spiritual entity … Guided by the Spirit in all Truth …
 
…first after Jesus rebukes Peter in his promise to pray for Peter’s return so that Peter may strengthen the others
I have no idea what you’re referring to here.
and then before Jesus’ Ascension where Jesus helps Peter reverse his three fold denial by asking “Peter do you love me?” Three times …followed 3 times with a singular command to Peter to feed and tend the sheep (shepherd the shepherds)
How do sheep = shepherds? In John, Jesus is clearly the good shepherd.
and feed the lambs (the faithful - the church - the people in f God).

We read the whole of God’s word …not mere portions that support a view …
I would suggest then (in your appeal to the whole word and not just portions), a thorough reading of Ezekiel 34 to which the John passage refers. The command to feed the sheep is more stern prophetic warning rather than any kind of affirmation of Peter’s glorified role in the church. Sort of a “You messed up before–don’t mess up after I’m gone” kind of speech.

It seems to me that Catholics continue to build a gigantic theological house of cards on a misunderstanding of about 10 verses of scripture. Peter’s authority flows directly from his right proclamation of the Gospel and correct understanding of the mission of Jesus and the proper role of authority in the church–servant leadership. To the extent he does that and does that clearly and directly, he has great authority–the greatest even. To the extent he does not do that, he is a Satan–a fallen angel/messenger of the Gospel.

Authority flows from right doctrine; not right doctrine from authority.
 
I already addressed the connection to Isaiah 22 in post #42. Peter is a proper “Eliakim”–for about two verses–but ends up being a “Shebnah” in the story. This repeats the literary pattern followed in regards to Peter in the Gospel according to Matthew; Peter starts off well, but ends poorly. Being called a Satan by Jesus is ending poorly. How would you interpret Jesus’ remarks if he called you a Satan?
This is another dead-end for you, Dave, because actually, the story ends just as Jesus intended all along: Peter is made the vicarious shepherd left in charge over the entire flock of Jesus. In case you missed it:

In John 21:15-19, the resurrected Christ, commands Simon Peter three times to “feed my lambs” and “tend my sheep.”

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed (bosko) my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of (poimanao) my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, "Feed (bosko) my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics object to the Catholic understanding that Peter was given this unique leadership position, and they cite a passage from earlier in this same Gospel wherein Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd, and says there is to be but “one flock and one Shepherd.” (John 10:11-16) Therefore, the immediate question springs to mind: If Christ is the Good Shepherd, why can’t He “feed” and “tend” His own sheep?

Of course, Jesus is God, and He is clearly capable of taking care of His own flock – even after He ascends to heaven. So, why does He appoint Peter to this role? Obviously, all sheep belong to Christ, and they do not cease to belong to Jesus after the ascension. Yet, Peter is told to “feed” and “tend” them. Jesus commissions Peter to act as His “stand-in” or “vicar” after the ascension. Jesus will remain the one Shepherd, yet Peter will “feed” and “tend” the sheep, in the sense that Jesus will not be physically present to do it. Thus, Peter will be the visible, vicarious shepherd of the flock.

Because of the implications of this earthly authority and the unique Catholic claims for the papacy, non-Catholics seek alternative explanations for Jesus’ words. One attempt is to claim that Peter simply has the same authority to care for the flock of Christ that all of the other apostles had. However, this argument fails for two reasons.

First, the extent of the authority Jesus gave to Peter can be seen quite clearly in the original Greek. For example, the word which is used for “feed” in John 21 is bosko – a word which the Jewish historian Philo of Alexandria, and other 1st Century writers, use to denote “spiritual nourishment.” Similarly, the word “tend” is poimanao – the same Greek word which is translated as “rule” in passages such as Matt 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev. 12:5, and Rev. 19:15, where it is applied to Jesus Himself. Peter, like Jesus, is to “rule” over the sheep, and to “supply them with spiritual nourishment.” Thus, Peter is established as the vicarious shepherd (i.e., “supreme pastor”) of the Church in Christ’s physical absence.

While it may be argued that any shepherd would have similar responsibilities for his sheep and that the Bible is full of passages using the relationship between sheep and shepherd as a metaphor for our relationship with God, in the context of the New Testament, only Peter received this unique appointment directly from Christ Himself. Jesus took great care to identify Peter’s new responsibility as head of the Church with His own role as Head of the Body, the Church. No other Apostle received this focus.

Second, in Luke’s Last Supper account, we see quite clearly that Peter was singled out to play the role of a leader and unifier among the Apostles. The passage is as follows:

Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you (the Greek “you” is plural) like wheat, but I have prayed for you (the Greek here is singular) that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers. 33But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

In Luke 22:31-32, Satan sought to destroy all of the Apostles, but Jesus prayed for Simon Peter alone that Peter might strengthen all of the other Apostles whose faith would be shaken, as well. Clearly, Peter is not merely “one Apostle among others.” Rather, he is also responsible for the welfare of all. That is a special ministry – the ministry of the vicarious shepherd. No other Apostle is given the responsibility for caring for the Twelve in this way, and this assignment is all the more significant when we consider that in the following verses (v. 33-34), Jesus predicts Peter’s three-fold denial. Despite Jesus’ foreknowledge of Peter’s denials, Jesus prays for and assigns to Peter the task of caring for the others.

(cont.)
 
This brings us to the refutation of another non-Catholic argument against Peter’s position as leader of the Christian Church: Jesus was simply re-instating Peter in John 21 by mirroring Peter’s three denials with three questions, “Do you love me?” Yet, we see from Luke 22:31-34, that Peter’s three-fold denial is contrasted, not with Peter’s apostleship, but rather with Peter’s special ministry to strengthen and unify the other Apostles …and this before he denies Christ three times. Thus, if Peter is restored to anything in John 21, it must include the commission he was given in Luke 22:31-32 – namely, to be the one to strengthen those other Apostles whose faith was flagging.

In Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-19 Peter is commissioned, and then re-commissioned, as the vicarious shepherd over the entire flock in Christ’s physical absence.

In summary, we know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (cf. John 10). Yet, in the passage from John 21, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Not only does Peter (and his successors, the Popes) hold the Royal Steward’s keys to the kingdom of God (cf. Mt 16:18, Is. 22:22), but he holds the shepherd’s crook or crozier, as well.
 
You might want to talk to the people at Catholic Answers then:

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

“Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19)…” Sure Catholics pull in other verses as well to try to support this claim, but you can’t say “Catholics don’t base their understanding of infallibility on the keys.” Certainly some do.
*Some *do? Okay, you got me there. :rolleyes:

But read the passage you quoted carefully. The portion I highlighted in red above provides support for the idea that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Bishops. Why? *Because Mt. 16:18-19 defines Peter as the royal steward…the chief steward of the kingdom of God! * This is the point I have been making all along.

For specific passages supporting infallibility, Catholic Answers referenced “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). They also stated:

In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 (“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail”), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").

It is only here that CA finally references Mt. 16:18-19, but it’s the fifth verse mentioned…not the first! And all they provide is a snippet. More complete is the passage wherein CA wrote:

Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.

IOW, Mt. 16:18-19 might conceivably provide some secondary support for infallibility, but IMO (and that of Catholic Answers, apparently), there is much stronger material available to work with.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
I have no idea what you’re referring to here.

How do sheep = shepherds? In John, Jesus is clearly the good shepherd.

I would suggest then (in your appeal to the whole word and not just portions), a thorough reading of Ezekiel 34 to which the John passage refers. The command to feed the sheep is more stern prophetic warning rather than any kind of affirmation of Peter’s glorified role in the church. Sort of a “You messed up before–don’t mess up after I’m gone” kind of speech.

It seems to me that Catholics continue to build a gigantic theological house of cards on a misunderstanding of about 10 verses of scripture. Peter’s authority flows directly from his right proclamation of the Gospel and correct understanding of the mission of Jesus and the proper role of authority in the church–servant leadership. To the extent he does that and does that clearly and directly, he has great authority–the greatest even. To the extent he does not do that, he is a Satan–a fallen angel/messenger of the Gospel.

Authority flows from right doctrine; not right doctrine from authority.
Dave - I hope and pray that you read Randy’s posts that follow and spend some time in quiet reflection … I was on a break at work with my smart phone - able to do nothing other then remind of you the passages - Randy did and excellent job of opening up those scriptures and showing you their great depth …

The People of God Jesus gathered - His Church - he gathered within a structure … it has a leader we can see that is guided by the Holy Spirit - just as Jesus promised … He left a structure that has endured for two millennia - and that structure has a leader … given the vocation of serving the people of God and the servants who serve them … the Pope is the servant of the servants of God …
 
Dave, Catholics don’t base their understanding of infallibility on the keys. As you note, they are symbols of the authority invested uniquely in Peter. Sure, the other apostles had similar authority, but only one was the chief shepherd or royal steward over the entire House of David ruled by Jesus.

The basis for our understanding of infallibility is found in other verses.

So, let’s focus now on one aspect of Matthew 16:18-9; put it side-by-side with Is. 22:20-22 and ask you self this one question: Did Jesus choose his words merely by chance or did He deliberately invoke the imagery found in the passage from Isaiah? If the latter, why? 🤷

Here they are again…just look at them.

Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Mere coincidence? :nope:
You started this thread wanting to connect the power of the keys to infallibility.
Is Jesus our king? Did He re-establish the office of the Royal Steward?

In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command (known as the royal steward or prime minister) who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. The prophet Isaiah confirms this:

Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

In the passage above, God is speaking, and He confirms the existence of the office, the key, and the continuation of the office despite the change of office holder. In other words, the office of the royal steward continued even when the man who held the office died or was replaced by someone else. God Himself passes the key from one steward to the next.

In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus inherits the throne of his father, David.

Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.

We also read the following:

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The passage quoted above from Matthew tells us that Jesus named Peter as His royal steward and gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven" as the symbol of his authority to speak in His name. Since Jesus is an eternal king, the office of royal steward in His kingdom will never end. Peter died as a martyr as Jesus foretold, but the successors of Peter have taken his place in the perpetual office that Jesus established in His royal court.

In addition to the reference to a key or keys, note the following parallels:

"What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Is. 22:22)
"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt. 16:19)

Jesus specifically referenced the passage from Isaiah when He appointed Peter, and Peter received authority from Jesus to speak universally in His name. To do so faithfully, Peter must not teach error; therefore, Peter (and his successors who hold the office of the Royal Steward - also known as the Bishop of Rome) are protected by God through the charism of infallibility.
Now it seems as though you’ve back away from your original premise and want to discuss other verses?
 
You started this thread wanting to connect the power of the keys to infallibility.
No. Check the title of the thread. The reason I started this thread was to encourage Lutherans (who accept many Catholic doctrines) to consider the idea that Jesus really did intend to establish a universal shepherd over His entire flock.

As a sidebar issue, I pointed out that the passage from Mt. 16:18-19 ALSO provides some support for the doctrine of papal infallibility. However, if I had wanted to discuss that topic, I would have provided a very different set of verses in support of my argument.
Now it seems as though you’ve back away from your original premise and want to discuss other verses?
Dave, stop dodging the question.

Did Jesus choose His words in Mt. 16:18-19 merely by chance or did He deliberately invoke the imagery found in the passage from Isaiah 22:20-22?
 
This is another dead-end for you, Dave, because actually, the story ends just as Jesus intended all along: Peter is made the vicarious shepherd left in charge over the entire flock of Jesus. In case you missed it:

In John 21:15-19, the resurrected Christ, commands Simon Peter three times to “feed my lambs” and “tend my sheep.”

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed (bosko) my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of (poimanao) my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, "Feed (bosko) my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics object to the Catholic understanding that Peter was given this unique leadership position, and they cite a passage from earlier in this same Gospel wherein Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd, and says there is to be but “one flock and one Shepherd.” (John 10:11-16) Therefore, the immediate question springs to mind: If Christ is the Good Shepherd, why can’t He “feed” and “tend” His own sheep?

Of course, Jesus is God, and He is clearly capable of taking care of His own flock – even after He ascends to heaven. So, why does He appoint Peter to this role? Obviously, all sheep belong to Christ, and they do not cease to belong to Jesus after the ascension. Yet, Peter is told to “feed” and “tend” them. Jesus commissions Peter to act as His “stand-in” or “vicar” after the ascension. Jesus will remain the one Shepherd, yet Peter will “feed” and “tend” the sheep, in the sense that Jesus will not be physically present to do it. Thus, Peter will be the visible, vicarious shepherd of the flock.
Again, the command to feed the sheep refers to Ezekiel 34 and its discussion of what it means to be a good or bad shepherd. And certainly this passage alludes back to the discussion of the good shepherd earlier in John. If you want to say that Peter has a special ministry to look after the material needs of the disciples, that makes perfect sense in light of the Book of Acts. Peter, after bragging about how he’s going to stay with Jesus to the death clearly failed. Jesus is telling him that from now on, he’s going to have to look out for the needs of others and not his own skin.
First, the extent of the authority Jesus gave to Peter can be seen quite clearly in the original Greek. For example, the word which is used for “feed” in John 21 is bosko – a word which the Jewish historian Philo of Alexandria, and other 1st Century writers, use to denote “spiritual nourishment.”
Really? Please provide your references–I would love to see them. I would say that Philo is a theologian, not an historian.
Similarly, the word “tend” is poimanao – the same Greek word which is translated as “rule” in passages such as Matt 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev. 12:5, and Rev. 19:15, where it is applied to Jesus Himself. Peter, like Jesus, is to “rule” over the sheep, and to “supply them with spiritual nourishment.” Thus, Peter is established as the vicarious shepherd (i.e., “supreme pastor”) of the Church in Christ’s physical absence.
I think this is where your argument goes off the rails. This is fairly complicated, but one might think of the image of the shepherd operating in two senses in the Ancient Near East. This first is the shepherd as ruler (an image as old as the Gilgamesh Epic) and then, of course, there are actual shepherds that tend actual sheep–the one that Jesus’ followers would be most attune to. Ironically, actual shepherding in this culture is the job of kids and the elderly–people that are simply not able to do much else. It’s the lowest position in the family structure. So which of the two images does Jesus pick in his discussion of the good shepherd in John? It’s the actual, humble, shepherd, NOT the shepherd-as-ruler image. Here, again, think Ezekiel 34 or even Psalm 23 for that matter.

The primary meaning of poimanao is to “be a shepherd” in the sense of feeding and protecting actual sheep. In this passage, the quite secondary meaning “to be a shepherd” as in “to rule over someone” is resisted rather than evoked. Peter is to now be the “good shepherd”–the one to literally feed and protect the sheep and not worry about his own skin as he has in the past–Ezekiel 34. The same is true of the Luke passage. (By the way, you’re all over the map in terms of your mixing and matching Gospels. You’ve abandoned your OP and should start other threads if you want to talk about other verses.) Peter is left in charge to look out for and protect the disciples. Peter’s mission is not “ruler” in the Gilgamesh sense—who is indeed a “bad shepherd” who abuses his power—but to be the chief caretaker and feeder (quite literally) of the other disciples. The position is one of humility and not power.
 
Dave, stop dodging the question.

Did Jesus choose His words in Mt. 16:18-19 merely by chance or did He deliberately invoke the imagery found in the passage from Isaiah 22:20-22?
If you’re posting here simply to be antagonistic (and not projecting a particularly positive image for your faith, I might add), then this is a big waste of time. If you want to take the time to read what I actually wrote about Isaiah 22 in two prior posts, and then respond to it, that would be great. From my point of view, you come across as being anxious to paste vast amounts of material in the thread but not really respond to what people are actually saying.
 
I am going to unsubscribe as I see little good coming from this thread.
 
Again, the command to feed the sheep refers to Ezekiel 34 and its discussion of what it means to be a good or bad shepherd. And certainly this passage alludes back to the discussion of the good shepherd earlier in John. If you want to say that Peter has a special ministry to look after the material needs of the disciples, that makes perfect sense in light of the Book of Acts. Peter, after bragging about how he’s going to stay with Jesus to the death clearly failed. Jesus is telling him that from now on, he’s going to have to look out for the needs of others and not his own skin.
Why limit Peter’s ministry to “material needs” only? Because that helps you to avoid the obvious implications if you were to concede that Peter had responsibility for the spiritual needs of the Church? :sad_yes:

What does it mean for Jesus to declare himself the Good Shepherd? Is He concerned with our “material needs” only? No.

Jesus, the Good Shepherd, knows that He is about to ascend to heaven. In words that are among His final instructions, He reiterates the responsibilities He has entrusted to Peter: to care for Jesus’ own flock as the vicarious shepherd of the Church.

“Bragging”, eh? I’ll let that go for now. 😉
I think this is where your argument goes off the rails. This is fairly complicated, but one might think of the image of the shepherd operating in two senses in the Ancient Near East. This first is the shepherd as ruler (an image as old as the Gilgamesh Epic) and then, of course, there are actual shepherds that tend actual sheep–the one that Jesus’ followers would be most attune to. Ironically, actual shepherding in this culture is the job of kids and the elderly–people that are simply not able to do much else. It’s the lowest position in the family structure. So which of the two images does Jesus pick in his discussion of the good shepherd in John? It’s the actual, humble, shepherd, NOT the shepherd-as-ruler image. Here, again, think Ezekiel 34 or even Psalm 23 for that matter.
It has to be either/or, eh? Why not both?

But okay, let’s go with your assertions for a moment. Again, Jesus identifies Himself as the shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep. Now, which kind of shepherd does that? The “ruler” in his palace? Or the “actual” shepherd in the field? Jesus chose the latter and charged Peter with doing the same - even predicting that Peter, too, would die as a martyr. As for the bit about “kids and the elderly”, you may recall that Jesus said that we must become like little children. So, for Peter to take on the job of a child in caring for the flock would be in line with what Jesus asked him to do.

What you cannot seem to grasp is the fact that Jesus is both ruler and “actual” shepherd of His people. Consequently, as His vicar (and I’m assuming you know the definition), Peter is called to both, also.
The primary meaning of poimanao is to “be a shepherd” in the sense of feeding and protecting actual sheep. In this passage, the quite secondary meaning “to be a shepherd” as in “to rule over someone” is resisted rather than evoked. Peter is to now be the “good shepherd”–the one to literally feed and protect the sheep and not worry about his own skin as he has in the past–Ezekiel 34. The same is true of the Luke passage.
Revelation 19:15
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule (poimanao) them with an iron scepter.”

Jesus rules and He instructs Peter to poimanao, as well.
(By the way, you’re all over the map in terms of your mixing and matching Gospels. You’ve abandoned your OP and should start other threads if you want to talk about other verses.) Peter is left in charge to look out for and protect the disciples. Peter’s mission is not “ruler” in the Gilgamesh sense—who is indeed a “bad shepherd” who abuses his power—but to be the chief caretaker and feeder (quite literally) of the other disciples. The position is one of humility and not power.
Abandoned my OP? :rolleyes:

No, I’m simply responding to you. My premise is really simple and supported by scripture:
  1. Jesus inherits the throne of his forefather, David.
  2. Jesus, as God, is an eternal king whose reign will never end.
  3. Jesus, like may kings in scripture, established the office Royal Steward to act with authority in His absence.
  4. The office of the Royal Steward is a perpetual office that continues despite the death or removal of any individual office holder.
  5. Using language from a passage of Isaiah that would have been unmistakably clear in its meaning to His Jewish audience, Jesus named Peter as the first holder of that office by giving Peter the symbols of that office, the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
 
If you’re posting here simply to be antagonistic (and not projecting a particularly positive image for your faith, I might add), then this is a big waste of time. If you want to take the time to read what I actually wrote about Isaiah 22 in two prior posts, and then respond to it, that would be great. From my point of view, you come across as being anxious to paste vast amounts of material in the thread but not really respond to what people are actually saying.
I’m not trying to be antagonistic (and here you start down the path of an ad hominem attack which does not reflect well on you).

I’ve read your posts, and I’ve tried to respond. Perhaps I failed to answer to your satisfaction, but at least I tried.

Now, please return the courtesy.

Did Jesus choose His words in Mt. 16:18-19 merely by chance or did He deliberately invoke the imagery found in the passage from Isaiah 22:20-22?
 
I’m not trying to be antagonistic (and here you start down the path of an ad hominem attack which does not reflect well on you).

I’ve read your posts, and I’ve tried to respond. Perhaps I failed to answer to your satisfaction, but at least I tried.

Now, please return the courtesy.

Did Jesus choose His words in Mt. 16:18-19 merely by chance or did He deliberately invoke the imagery found in the passage from Isaiah 22:20-22?
Assuming He chose that imagery intentionally, how does that translate into papal supremacy that isn’t extant in the Church in Scripture (Acts, for example), or the early Church of the centuries following?

Even Nicaea 325 in canon 6 doesn’t come close to an implication of the supremacy we see claimed in the second millennium.

Jon
 
Assuming He chose that imagery intentionally, how does that translate into papal supremacy that isn’t extant in the Church in Scripture (Acts, for example), or the early Church of the centuries following?

Even Nicaea 325 in canon 6 doesn’t come close to an implication of the supremacy we see claimed in the second millennium.

Jon
Jon-

Thanks for participating in this thread. Your thoughtful contributions are always appreciated.

Before I answer, let me ask whether you are willing to give a yes or no answer to my primary question? We both know that the answer to that question is REALLY significant, so it deserves much thought and prayer. I’m sure you will give it both.

Now, with regard to your question, I think that the answer lies in the fact that the Church has developed on an as needed basis. Let me use an analogy: let’s suppose that you and I decide to go on a canoe trip through a scenic lake-district in Canada. I don’t normally use the arm and shoulder muscles needed for serious paddling on a regular basis, so I am going to have to develop those muscles in order to make the journey. The same would be true of any physical activity: running, mountain climbing, cycling, or house painting and gardening. I have the muscles - they’re there - they just aren’t very evident because they haven’t been used very much.

Similarly, the Church was just a babe when Jesus first ascended into heaven and when the Spirit descended on the day of Pentecost. Its spiritual strength was not yet developed. But 0ver time, as it grew, it had to develop to meet new challenges and opportunities. Within a few centuries, the Church looked very different from that small band of 120 souls hiding in an upper room in Jerusalem. Even within the pages of scripture, we see these developments as Matthias was elected, Gentile believers were admitted and the Apostles appointed deacons to watch over the daily distribution of food to the widows of the Church.

Well, so much for my poor attempt. Far better are the words of Cardinal Newman who addressed this very subject in a full-length book entitled, Essay On the Development of Christian Doctrine. In post #8 of this thread, I provide an excerpt from this book which goes to the heart of your question. You may have read it, but I ask you to do so again. Newman, an Anglican scholar of no small import, shared your concerns and found the Catholic answer satisfactory.

I look forward to your thoughts on his reflections.
 
THE DOUBLE STANDARD EXPOSED

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: We are saved by faith alone. The Bible is very clear on this.

CATHOLIC: There is no verse which explicitly teaches this. The phrase “faith alone” does not appear anywhere in the New Testament.

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: This is technically true, but the principle of sola fide can be easily interpreted from many verses if you have ears to hear them correctly.

CATHOLIC: But there are other verses which explicitly tell us that without works all we have is dead faith, and James tells us explicitly that we are NOT saved by faith alone. So, you don’t have an explicit verse supporting faith alone while I do have a verse that denies it.

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: Be that as it may, the idea that we are saved by faith alone is the bedrock of Protestant Christianity.

The next day…

CATHOLIC: Jesus named Peter as the royal steward in His kingdom by giving Peter the keys of the kingdom.

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: There is no verse which explicitly teaches this. The phrase “royal steward” does not appear anywhere in the NT.

CATHOLIC: This is technically true, but in Mt. 16:18-19, Jesus intentionally uses language that is almost identical to Is. 22:20-22 wherein God names Eliakim as the royal steward under King Hezekiah. The connection is obvious.

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: That doesn’t prove that Peter was given universal authority over the Church. Moreover, there is no evidence that Peter exercised such authority in the pages of the New Testament.

CATHOLIC: But there are other verses in which Peter is specifically told to strengthen his brothers and to feed and to tend the flock. So, I have verses supporting the belief that Peter was named the royal steward with universal jurisdiction in the Church, and you don’t have anything from the NT which denies that Peter had this authority.

BIBLE CHRISTIAN: That’s not enough to prove Peter’s universal jurisdiction. Without an explicit statement, your proposition is unsupported.

🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top