Lutherans: The King and the Royal Steward

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benjohnson said:
Not so fast… The NCR and the deathless death:
  1. Does the dogma require us to believe that Mary died?
It is the common teaching that Mary did die. In his work, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott lists this teaching as sententia communior (Latin, “the more common opinion”).
Although it is the common understanding of that Mary did die, and although her death is referred to in some of the sources Pius XII cited in Munificentissimus Deus,** he deliberately refrained from defining this as a truth of the faith.**
John Paul II noted:
On 1 November 1950, in defining the dogma of the Assumption, Pius XII avoided using the term “resurrection” and did not take a position on the question of the Blessed Virgin’s death as a truth of faith.
The Bull Munificentissimus Deus limits itself to affirming the elevation of Mary’s body to heavenly glory, declaring this truth a “divinely revealed dogma.”

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/the-assumption-of-mary-12-things-to-know-and-share1#ixzz3JiZDifpV
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The fact of Mary’s death was established by Adrian 1 (if not before) whose words are cited in this paragraph:
  1. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”(11)
As a Catholic, it does not matter to me one way or the other. If Mary did not die, then I will use that as additional support for the Immaculate Conception by pointing out the wages of sin is death; no sin, no death. Boo-yah!

OTOH, if Mary did die, then I argue that although she was sinless, she chose to be conformed to the image and likeness of her Divine Son who also suffered death, and thereby gave witness to the holiness that all of us should strive for.
 
Randy_Carson said:
The fact of Mary’s death was established by Adrian 1 (if not before) whose words are cited in this paragraph:
  1. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”(11)
As a Catholic, it does not matter to me one way or the other. If Mary did not die, then I will use that as additional support for the Immaculate Conception by pointing out the wages of sin is death; no sin, no death. Boo-yah!

OTOH, if Mary did die, then I argue that although she was sinless, she chose to be conformed to the image and likeness of her Divine Son who also suffered death, and thereby gave witness to the holiness that all of us should strive for.
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This is where the whole Immaculate Conception goes off the rails. It is very dangerous because it causes all kinds of speculation just like this.
 
Seraphim73 said:
It’s hardly petty considering you guys don’t even know yourselves.
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What I do know is revelation continued to be defined through the Lord. Had that not been the case we wouldn’t have the work we do on the nature of Jesus Christ and the Incarnation. Same thing with the Dormition and Assumption and IC.
 
GaryTaylor said:
What I do know is revelation continued to be defined through the Lord. Had that not been the case we wouldn’t have the work we do on the nature of Jesus Christ and the Incarnation. Same thing with the Dormition and Assumption and IC.
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Well either she died or she didn’t. That’s not a thing to be better understood.
 
Seraphim73 said:
This is where the whole Immaculate Conception goes off the rails. It is very dangerous because it causes all kinds of speculation just like this.
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It’s a pity that you did not consider all the facts more carefully before choosing your current Church membership.

Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception

Hippolytus (AD 235)

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Origen (AD 244)

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

St. Ephraim the Syrian (AD 361)

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (ibid.)

St. Ambrose of Milan (AD 387)

Come, then, and search out Your sheep, not through Your servants or hired men, but do it Yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain of sin (ut incorrupta sit virgo, sed virgo per gratium ab omni integra labe peccati)." (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22-30 [A.D. 387])

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

St. Augustine (ca. AD 415)

Having excepted the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins,—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say again, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer? …if they had been so questioned, would they not have declared with a single voice: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us!”? (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

**As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain **(Homily 1 [ante A.D. 446]).

St. Andrew of Crete (AD 660 – AD 740)

Today, O Savior, You have give to pious Anne fruitful offspring of her womb, Your Immaculate Mother… (Canon on the Nativity of the Blessed Mother – Ode 4)

O Virgin undefiled, undefiled is your birth… (Canon on the Nativity of the Blessed Mother – Ode 5)

St. John Damascene (ca. AD 645 – ca. AD 749)

We had closed Paradise; you opened again the entryway to the tree of life. We turned joys into sorrow; you turned sorrow back into the greatest of joys for us. And how would you, the Immaculate, taste of death? You are the bridge to life, you are the staircase to heaven; and [for you] death will be but a passageway to immortality. O Most Blessed, truly blessed art thou! (Second Homily on the Dormition of Mary, 10:8)
 
Seraphim73 said:
This is where the whole Immaculate Conception goes off the rails. It is very dangerous because it causes all kinds of speculation just like this.
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Who defines whats speculation in theology and in fact revelation by God? One may not agree with the idea of dogma, but the theology is very consistent and really doesn’t distract from the early Church. In fact it puts much in perspective and with scripture in mind. I guess what Im saying is with either dogma as I read its a natural procession of grace in revelation.
 
Randy_Carson said:
It’s a pity that you did not consider all the facts more carefully before choosing your current Church membership.

Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception

Hippolytus (AD 235)

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Origen (AD 244)

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

St. Ephraim the Syrian (AD 361)

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (ibid.)

St. Ambrose of Milan (AD 387)

Come, then, and search out Your sheep, not through Your servants or hired men, but do it Yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain of sin (ut incorrupta sit virgo, sed virgo per gratium ab omni integra labe peccati)." (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22-30 [A.D. 387])

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

St. Augustine (ca. AD 415)

Having excepted the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins,—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say again, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer? …if they had been so questioned, would they not have declared with a single voice: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us!”? (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1 [ante A.D. 446]).

St. Andrew of Crete (AD 660 – AD 740)

Today, O Savior, You have give to pious Anne fruitful offspring of her womb, Your Immaculate Mother… (Canon on the Nativity of the Blessed Mother – Ode 4)

O Virgin undefiled, undefiled is your birth… (Canon on the Nativity of the Blessed Mother – Ode 5)

St. John Damascene (ca. AD 645 – ca. AD 749)

We had closed Paradise; you opened again the entryway to the tree of life. We turned joys into sorrow; you turned sorrow back into the greatest of joys for us. And how would you, the Immaculate, taste of death? You are the bridge to life, you are the staircase to heaven; and [for you] death will be but a passageway to immortality. O Most Blessed, truly blessed art thou! (Second Homily on the Dormition of Mary, 10:8)
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Randy I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t use things I’ve told you in private messages here on the public forum. Again you are engaging in revisionism. Just because a person in the 6th century used the word immaculate doesn’t mean they meant what you mean today. The Catholic Church has given a very specific definition of the term, one that was not shared by the early Church.
 
I’m on my lunch break and am reading, I apologize for derailing the thread some. Like I said I will bring the point that I was trying to make back around to the topic of the OP.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Well either she died or she didn’t. That’s not a thing to be better understood.
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Thats an elementary point, my point is with “body and soul” I am left with an unexplained reality of a Soul that for sure never died and a dead body that went along with it?

Yes, the contemplation continues. To say Mary died, I say, may the Lord be forever Blessed. Died and transported body and soul is another conversation. But hey, no need for theological speculation, only prayer.
 
LionHeart777 said:
I’m on my lunch break and am reading, I apologize for derailing the thread some. Like I said I will bring the point that I was trying to make back around to the topic of the OP.
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I don’t thing you have to worry too much… it’s a continuation to the OP in that we’re talking about ‘authority.’
 
Seraphim73 said:
It’s hardly petty considering you guys don’t even know yourselves. And just for the record the Catholic Church celebrated her Dormition for many centuries before making another change and beginning to celebrate the Assumption. In fact in churches all over Italy and Europe you find images of the Dormition in classic iconographic style.

http://s13.postimg.org/gurjkpeiv/Pier_Maria_Pennacchi_Dormition_of_the_Virgin.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-51lnQkVxq...s1600/Dormition+of+Virgin_Strasbourg_1220.jpg

And here is the icon.

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1...Theotokos__45621.1409482411.1000.1200.JPG?c=2

It wasn’t until much later that the iconography changed. Instead of the reposed Mary, surrounded by the Apostles with Christ holding her soul, you wind up with images depicting her ascending into heaven just like Christ.

http://s30.postimg.org/6b8kuouxd/show_Image.jpg
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To my understanding (in listening to a Priest on the radio), the two different beliefs have a lineage with the Blessed Virgin having died being the more ancient. But if this matter is in the realm of theological opinion and is not a dogma, it doesn’t matter if there has been a change of view (there hasn’t to my understanding as the view that St Mary died is the more common I think.) What it is is that there is just two different theological opinions on a matter that is not part of the dogma (to my understanding and that of others.) Surely theological opinions have come and gone in your own communion no? Or do you believe whether the Blessed Virgin died or not is a dogma?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Thats an elementary point, my point is with “body and soul” I am left with an unexplained reality of a Soul that for sure never died and a dead body that went along with it?

Yes, the contemplation continues. To say Mary died, I say, may the Lord be forever Blessed. Died and transported body and soul is another conversation. But hey, no need for theological speculation, only prayer.
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But that’s exactly what all of this is, theological speculation. It is the clear tradition that she did indeed die. The iconography shows it.
 
LionHeart777 said:
To my understanding (in listening to a Priest on the radio), the two different beliefs have a lineage with the Blessed Virgin having died being the more ancient. But if this matter is in the realm of theological opinion and is not a dogma, it doesn’t matter if there has been a change of view (there hasn’t to my understanding as the view that St Mary died is the more common I think.) What it is is that there is just two different theological opinions on a matter that is not part of the dogma (to my understanding and that of others.) Surely theological opinions have come and gone in your own communion no? Or do you believe whether the Blessed Virgin died or not is a dogma?
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That the Theotokos died is absolutely a doctrine and has been as shown in ancient western iconography.
 
Seraphim73 said:
That the Theotokos died is absolutely a doctrine and has been as shown in ancient western iconography.
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I don’t disagree with the belief that St. Mary died–I don’t know either way, whatever Rome says on the matter that I will believe. But to my understanding, that is in the realm of theological opinion in the Catholic Church. I will have to check my copy of Dr. Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” tonight as I wanted to already to bring my point back around–which may not even be that great anyway :o But it seems to me that if this was a point of contention between EO and Catholic Christians, there would be talk about it amongst the hierarchy. I have never heard of this matter causing any kind of obstacle to unity. I don’t believe it came up in Dr. Aiden Nichol’s recent book, “Rome and the Eastern Churches”, for example. Nor have I herad anything, but I’m no expert.
 
Seraphim73 said:
No I wouldn’t say the Assumption is a point of contention as long as it’s made explicit that Mary did in fact die. Thim.
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Why is this even necessary to make it explicit? The point of making the Assumption dogma was the Assumption, the focus was the assumption, not the death…🤷
 
Seraphim73 said:
That the Theotokos died is absolutely a doctrine and has been as shown in ancient western iconography.
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Aside from iconography, is this doctrine in writing somewhere and could you please point us to it?

Thanks.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Randy I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t use things I’ve told you in private messages here on the public forum. Again you are engaging in revisionism. Just because a person in the 6th century used the word immaculate doesn’t mean they meant what you mean today. The Catholic Church has given a very specific definition of the term, one that was not shared by the early Church.
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6th century? Try 3rd.

And Immaculate did not mean then what it means today?

Okay, let’s take another look at what Ephraim said in the 4th century:

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.”

Most Holy. (one who is most holy cannot become more holy)
All-Pure.
All-Immaculate.
All-Stainless. (no stain of original sin)
All-Undefiled.
All-Incorrupt.
All-Inviolate.
Spotless.

Three of those terms refer to her perpetual virginity, but the others surely do not.
 
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