Lutherans to allow sexually active gays as clergy

[Newbie2]

No its not.

Did John7’s post clear that up for ya?

That’s a peripheral issue to this discussion, anyway, that is whether or not homosexual behavior is a sin. They hypocrisy of the position that allows gay fornication but not straight fornication is what bothers me the most. It’s also the drift to acceptance of homosexual sin as non-sin over time that would make Luther roll over in his grave.

Like has been said, the only way the ELCA officials can remedy this theological problem is to endorse homosexual marriage, thus rendering “married” homosexual sex “non-fornication”. A very curious problem indeed.

LCMS’ers, hang tough. You gotta wonder what’s next.

 

[Elric]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived;
neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor effeminate,
nor homosexuals (NASB)

this english word
homosexuals
is from Gk arsenokoitai

two parts to this word: arsen-o-koitai
arsen = male
koitai = coitus

so
homosexuals = males having coitus with each other

Persons who practice such acts are UNrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

seems clear to me, and no room for doubt

Actually Koitai means “bed”.

So what you have is the term “malebed”. Which could mean “men who have sex with each other” (bearing in mind that “homosexual” is a term created quite recently), or it could mean something else entirely. Comsidering that there were other words (such as paiderasste) that could have been used to describe homosexual acts, its not entirely clear what was meant with this created word.

 

[JonNC]

Thats really a cop out, because homosexuals are not allowed to marry.

So I guess the answer is to let them marry so that they are not commiting adultry.

Tghe clear teaching of scripture and the Church is not a cop out. Marriage, by definition, is between a man and woman. So, the answer is not to change what God has ordained, but instead to recognize what God has ordained. Two men can go through a marriage ceremony, and it doesn’t make it marriage, regardless of what civil authorities say.

Jon

 

[John7]

Actually Koitai means “bed”.

So what you have is the term “malebed”. Which could mean “men who have sex with each other” (bearing in mind that “homosexual” is a term created quite recently), or it could mean something else entirely. Comsidering that there were other words (such as paiderasste) that could have been used to describe homosexual acts, its not entirely clear what was meant with this created word.

how are you going to translate koitais in Rom 13:13…‘beds’

Let us behave properly as in the day,
not in carousing and drunkenness,
not in beds (koitais) and sensuality,
not in strife and jealousy

 

[Alix1912]

In all fairness, this is the Evangelical Lutheran church-a much, much, much more theologically and politically liberal branch than the Missuori Synod.

The title of the article is a little misleading. The ELCA will allow this. They may be the largest Lutheran denomination but they certainly do not speak for all Lutherans.

God bless

Thank you far acknowledging that there is a difference in Lutheran Synods. As a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I am appalled at what the ELCA is doing, and I am very upset that it is being reported as something that “Lutherans” have decided when clearly not all Lutherans support this act. I figure that the disenchanted conservative ELCA members and congregations will most likely join the Missouri or Wisconsin Synod or form their own new one. This is just sad and disappointing.

Mark my words. With these events the ECLA will, in time, look much more favorably upon abortion. It’s a sad day for Lutheranism.

They already do. Abortion is covered in the health plan offered to female clergy. That happened a while ago.

I had not heard that as of yet, but I’m not surprised. Please also keep in mind that many plans just offer this and you don’t really get a choice in coverage when you are buying the plan as a company. Also sometimes the terminology is confusing, as the same equipment is used for an abortion as is used after a woman miscarries to insure that nothing is left behind that could cause a dangerous infection. I have no idea how their plan is worded, or why as I am not ELCA.

 

[timotheos]

So many strong, strong wills out there. What a great desire there is to see all forms of sexual desire as ordered, healthy and sanctioned by God himself! How weak the flesh truly is! How humility and truth-seeking are under great attack!

There is a minor firestorm in the comments section of our local on-line newspaper over this story. The skirmish involves the mushy “all-Jesus-said-is-love-your-neighbor” Christians vs. the athiests vs. those who have read and believe in God’s word. I am tempted (begone Satan!) to describe many of those supportive of the ELCA vote as invincibly confirmed in sin, as they are sooo headstrong. But no, God may work a miracle with them as he did for me. I must pray for them.

To God goes the glory, Tim

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Is there anything in the bible that clearly states with no room for interperation that homosexual acts are wrong?

I know that there are a number of passages that could suggest that homosexual acts are wrong, but I have not seen anything that leaves no room for doubt.

I am not trying to suggest that homosexual act are ok or anything of the sort, I am suggesting that it is not exactly clear either way.

There is precious little in the bible, old or new testament that supports a position that God is against his own creation: the homosexual. There was no understanding of what is considered homosexuality today, no word for it in ancient hebrew or greek as such. Mostly the few verses that exist referred to temple prostitution and men who acted as women, being subservient to men. This was considered unseemly since women were the lowest on the totem pole so to speak.

They had no concept of homosexuality in terms of committed relationship at all. Jesus never uttered a word on the subject. Liviticus is the only real OT reference and that is explicitly reserved for Israel alone, never applying to Gentiles. And we have judiciously not followed a number of Livitical laws ever since. Even in the NT we are told in Acts that Gentiles must refrain from eating blood. That has been ignored, as have the prohibitions about ursury, upon which our entire economy is now built.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I’m surprised, then again…maybe I’m not

comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090821/US.Lutherans.Gays/

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (roughly the size of the TEC at 2 million plus members) really hates it when the press says, “The Lutheran Church…” and is referring to the ELCA. In fact, if I recall correctly, the LCMS once said they could no longer consider the ELCA an orthodox Lutheran body.

The LCMS is theologically conservative.

Your mistake is not uncommon since the headlines say what you posted and are wrong. It is the ELCA. It would be like every time the TEC came up with some “new thing” the headlines just read, “Christians now believe…” and thus lumped Catholics in with it.

 

[JonNC]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (roughly the size of the TEC at 2 million plus members) really hates it when the press says, “The Lutheran Church…” and is referring to the ELCA. In fact, if I recall correctly, the LCMS once said they could no longer consider the ELCA an orthodox Lutheran body.

The LCMS is theologically conservative.

Your mistake is not uncommon since the headlines say what you posted and are wrong. It is the ELCA. ** It would be like every time the TEC came up with some “new thing” the headlines just read, “Christians now believe…” and thus lumped Catholics in with it.**

Actually, RevDrNorth, I think it more would be like everytime the TEC came up with some new idea, the headlines read, “Anglicans now believe…”, lumping in the TAC. But, your point is correct. And the gulf between the ELCA and the LCMS just got broader.

Jon

 

[GeorgeSword]

There is precious little in the bible, old or new testament that supports a position that God is against his own creation: the homosexual.

Let us assume for a moment that homosexuality, or at least homosexual acts, are sinful. Then it is not the creation of God that causes it but, rather, the temptation of the devil.
What is the purpose of our reproductive organs? Reproduction. Homosexuals cannot reproduce, as God commanded, and hence it is not His creation, unless He has contradicted Himself and that we do not have these organs for reproduction but rather to pleasure ourselves, which is all homosexuals can hope to do. There is nothing wrong with the person. The simple fact is they have succumbed to a temptation, just like the rest of us.

 

[TristanCross]

This is just sad. I’m a cradle Lutheran. Because of this descision, I’m going Catholic!

 

[John7]

This is just sad. I’m a cradle Lutheran. Because of this descision, I’m going Catholic!

Me too, cradle Lutheran and switched to Catholic Church recently.

 

[John7]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (roughly the size of the TEC at 2 million plus members) really hates it when the press says, “The Lutheran Church…” and is referring to the ELCA. In fact, if I recall correctly, the LCMS once said they could no longer consider the ELCA an orthodox Lutheran body.

The LCMS is theologically conservative.

Your mistake is not uncommon

You’re right.

I picked this at LCMS website written by its president, Gerald B. Kieschnick

I speak these next words in deep humility, with a heavy heart and no desire whatsoever to offend. The decisions by this assembly to grant non-celibate homosexual ministers the privilege of serving as rostered leaders in the ELCA and the affirmation of same gender unions as pleasing to God will undoubtedly cause additional stress and disharmony within the ELCA. It will also negatively affect the relationships between our two church bodies. The current division between our churches threatens to become a chasm. This grieves my heart and the hearts of all in the ELCA, the LCMS, and other Christian church bodies throughout the world who do not see these decisions as compatible with the Word of God, or in agreement with the consensus of 2000 years of Christian theological affirmation regarding what Scripture teaches about human sexuality. Simply stated, this matter is fundamentally related to significant differences in how we understand the authority of Holy Scripture and the interpretation of God’s revealed and infallible Word.

here’s the rest.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=15618

 

[MetalMark]

Allowing active homosexuals as clergy is disgusting, and is completely, thoroughly, and 100% contrary to the word of God. If I was a Lutheran, I would not be able to continue being one after hearing this news… All we can do is pray.

 

[VARC]

The divide between RCs and episcopalians on sexual issues is too broad to make any discussion fruitful. Lutherans are kind of in the middle of the road when it comes to sexual issues. On the very liberal end of the sexual spectrum, the TEC leadership wants to bless gays who are committed to live in lifelong monogamous relationships. On the very conservative end of the sexual spectrum, Pope Benedict condemns married couples who use condoms even if one of them is HIV positive. I invite my Lutheran friends to decide which position on sexual ethics to be more absurd, morally irresponsible, and repugnant to the gospel.

Just a thought for you Lutherans to contemplate before swimming the Tiber.

 

[adrift]

Is there anything in the bible that clearly states with no room for interperation that homosexual acts are wrong?

I know that there are a number of passages that could suggest that homosexual acts are wrong, but I have not seen anything that leaves no room for doubt.

I am not trying to suggest that homosexual act are ok or anything of the sort, I am suggesting that it is not exactly clear either way.

USCCB

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
Footnote
The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the “cupbearer of the gods,” whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.

Romans 1:26-27

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,

and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

1 Tim 1:10

the unchaste, sodomites, 5 kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,

The word did not exist but the concept did. Like Trinity (13th century), Transubstantiation (14th Centruy and even the word Baptism (14 century) were developed to explain a concept so was the word homosexual. (1892).

Sodomy (13th Centruy)
from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Genesis 19:1–11
Verse seven says that homosexuality is wicked.

 

[Newbie2]

The divide between RCs and episcopalians on sexual issues is too broad to make any discussion fruitful. Lutherans are kind of in the middle of the road when it comes to sexual issues. On the very liberal end of the sexual spectrum, the TEC leadership wants to bless gays who are committed to live in lifelong monogamous relationships. On the very conservative end of the sexual spectrum, Pope Benedict condemns married couples who use condoms even if one of them is HIV positive. I invite my Lutheran friends to decide which position on sexual ethics to be more absurd, morally irresponsible, and repugnant to the gospel.

Just a thought for you Lutherans to contemplate before swimming the Tiber.

Actually, the act is condemned, not the couple. Oh, and it’s not just Pope Benedict, it’s the RCC.

Yeah, risking your spouses life is morall irresponsible. But that is another discussion.

However, there is a good point to be made on the wisdom of not making the decision to convert based solely on this position expressed by the ELCA on homosexuality.

 

[josie_L]

The divide between RCs and episcopalians on sexual issues is too broad to make any discussion fruitful. Lutherans are kind of in the middle of the road when it comes to sexual issues. On the very liberal end of the sexual spectrum, the TEC leadership wants to bless gays who are committed to live in lifelong monogamous relationships. On the very conservative end of the sexual spectrum, Pope Benedict condemns married couples who use condoms even if one of them is HIV positive. I invite my Lutheran friends to decide which position on sexual ethics to be more absurd, morally irresponsible, and repugnant to the gospel.

Just a thought for you Lutherans to contemplate before swimming the Tiber.

The UN released a study that stated condoms were 90% effective which translates to a 1 in 10 chance that your condom will fail. Therefore if you have sex repeatedly with a person infected with HIV, even with a condom, you run the risk of giving her the virus or receiving it from her. These odds are not great at all, so you can understand why Pope Benedict (the Catholic Church) would state it is better to abstain from sex then put your beloved at risk.

 

[MetalMark]

I would think the married life is inappropriate for someone with HIV/AIDS. It is a terrible tragedy.

 

[VARC]

I’ll give the customary answers to these quotes. Not to argue with those who disagree but for the benefit of those who are curious as to how liberals typically respond.

USCCB

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Leviticus is a poor foundation to build a morality doctrine upon. It is also considered an abomination to sow a field with two different types of seed and to wear a garment sewn with two fabrics.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
Footnote
The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the “cupbearer of the gods,” whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.

Neither TEC or the ELCA approve of the patronization of effeminate boy prostitutes so this passage doesn’t seem relevant.

Romans 1:26-27

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,

and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

This passage is in the context of idolatrous pagan worship that often involved gay and lesbian orgies. It was a common practice for gentiles in Greece and Rome in Paul’s time. Gays living in committed lifelong relationships is a concept unknown in the ancient world because of sociological norms and the economic need of children.

1 Tim 1:10

the unchaste, sodomites, 5 kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,

The word did not exist but the concept did. Like Trinity (13th century), Transubstantiation (14th Centruy and even the word Baptism (14 century) were developed to explain a concept so was the word homosexual. (1892).

Sodomy (13th Centruy)
from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Genesis 19:1–11
In the Scripture, it calls the act of homosexuality as evil.

It is insulting to associate the actions of the Sodomites with monogamous gay Christian couples. The actions in Sodom are more characteristic of a prison (violent homosexual gang rape) than what goes on in the home of a gay couple.