Lutherans

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This is from the LLC site, one of the larger bodies:

The Laestadian Lutheran Church takes its name from Martin Luther and Lars Levi Laestadius. The name of the reformer Martin Luther and his teachings are well known around the world. The name of Laestadius is less familiar. Lars Levi Laestadius was a Lutheran pastor who served in northern Sweden from 1825-1861. In 1844, after nineteen years in the ministry, Laestadius was helped into living faith by a woman named Milla Clementsdotter, a member of a group known as “Readers.” Following his conversion, Laestadius’s sermons were instilled with a new power, the power of the Holy Spirit. A revival movement began and soon spread far beyond the borders of Swedish Lapland.
The movement reached North America with Finnish immigrants in the 1860s. Congregations were first formally organized in Cokato, Minnesota in 1872 and Calumet, Michigan in 1873. Since 1890 a number of schisms have splintered the movement on this continent. The subjects of disagreement have primarily been the understanding of justification, God’s congregation, and the sacraments. The last division occurred in 1973 and was the impetus for the establishment of the Laestadian Lutheran Church.
The Laestadian Lutheran Church (LLC) was organized on June 9, 1973 under the name “Association of American Laestadian Congregations” (AALC). The association changed its name in 1995 in order to better convey its spiritual heritage and the nature of its organization. Today the Laestadian Lutheran Church has over thirty member congregations in the United States and Canada. The highest concentrations of members are in Minnesota, Washington, Arizona, Michigan, and Saskatchewan. The congregations are served by approximately ninety ministers. The teachings of Laestadianism are based on the Bible and the Lutheran Confessions. Centermost among these teachings is the sermon of Jesus’ suffering, death, and victorious resurrection. The work of Jesus Christ continues in this world as the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ’s congregation. Thus the Laestadian Lutheran Church teaches of God’s kingdom and preaches repentance and the forgiveness of sins. We hold, in accord with the Lutheran Confessions, that the Bible is the highest guide and authority for Christian faith, doctrine, and life.

Another article:
tdn.com/laestadian-lutherans-conservative-energy/article_fbc4a32e-aaaa-5d0c-b765-86046e0d239a.html

One of the members indirectly claims in the article to be “the true church”.
 
SyroMalankara said:
She says she’s a “practicing Catholic”, don’t know if she’s ever claimed “faithful”… 😉

So they not Lutheran but another denomination altogether?
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Yes, I would say so. Believing certain aspects of Lutheran teaching and rejecting other aspects doesn’t make one Lutheran. I mean, Catholics accept parts of what Lutherans believe, but that doesn’t make them Lutheran.

I would lump them together with other evangelical reformed groups.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Yes, I would say so. Believing certain aspects of Lutheran teaching and rejecting other aspects doesn’t make one Lutheran. I mean, Catholics accept parts of what Lutherans believe, but that doesn’t make them Lutheran.

I would lump them together with other evangelical reformed groups.
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An interesting tidbit from the ALC history I linked earlier:

In Lyngen, Norway, there is a small group of Laestadians who don’t desire communication or relationship with other Laestadian groups. They have a Laestadian doctrinal interpretation and need to be counted as Laestadians. They resemble the First Born in doctrine and practice. They are very conservative. Their singular characteristic is that they are more committed than other Laestadian groups to Lutheran Confession of faith and Luther’s writings. With them baptism receives more emphasis than with any other Laestadian group. They do not seem to adhere to the exclusivity doctrine as rigidly as the other Laestadians but on the other hand they live in such isolation in the mountains and fiords that concern for other religion is minor. They have fellowship with no other group and seem to exist spiritually alone. They are located in about four or five parishes in northern Norway within the state church of Norway. They totally control the parish church doctrine and practice. To interest members into the church in addition to Laestadians the pastor brought in Christmas tree into the church. The Laestadians stayed away with the result that no one was left in the church and the pastor had to leave. There are perhaps two thousand Laestadians in these four to five parishes in the Lyngen area of Norway.
 
SyroMalankara said:
An interesting tidbit from the ALC history I linked earlier:

In Lyngen, Norway, there is a small group of Laestadians who don’t desire communication or relationship with other Laestadian groups. They have a Laestadian doctrinal interpretation and need to be counted as Laestadians. They resemble the First Born in doctrine and practice. They are very conservative. Their singular characteristic is that they are more committed than other Laestadian groups to Lutheran Confession of faith and Luther’s writings. With them baptism receives more emphasis than with any other Laestadian group. They do not seem to adhere to the exclusivity doctrine as rigidly as the other Laestadians but on the other hand they live in such isolation in the mountains and fiords that concern for other religion is minor. They have fellowship with no other group and seem to exist spiritually alone. They are located in about four or five parishes in northern Norway within the state church of Norway. They totally control the parish church doctrine and practice. To interest members into the church in addition to Laestadians the pastor brought in Christmas tree into the church. The Laestadians stayed away with the result that no one was left in the church and the pastor had to leave. There are perhaps two thousand Laestadians in these four to five parishes in the Lyngen area of Norway.
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Just what the world needs; Pietistic Lutheran Norweigan Monks. Haha.

I’m so becoming Orthodox.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Just what the world needs; Pietistic Lutheran Norweigan Monks. Haha.

I’m so becoming Orthodox.
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Another sect, mainly Finnish transplants living in the US:

1973 between the SRK in Finland and the Heidemann group in America (The First Apostolic Lutheran Church with headquarters in Calumet, Mi.) The introduction of organizational patterns into the Laestadian Movement has always caused opposition and dissension . The first generation of Laestadian had no official formal organization and this has contributed an impressive tradition for opposition to official formal organizational patterns. Therefore innovations were opposed with the statement that this was the way that matters were considered in Laestadian Christianity in its beginning in its purity and truth. Very probably it was feared that official organizational patters and other innovations would have deleterious effects on the spiritual life of the congregation. We say that anything new is suspect and then that fear is given a spiritual interpretation. In 1880-1890 Laestadius’ daughter then living in Franklin, Mn., wrote very critically about the ministerial activity of Juhoni Takkinen. She was very critical about organizing congregations and making them legal. She wrote at length, “The Holy Spirit should suffice as the preacher to Christians. We don’t need any organizations. We don’t need any new modes of work. We don’t need any pastors for the Holy Spirit will do its work.”
 
Just fascinated by this group:

In 1880 the first Laestadian paper, Christian Monthly, was published. In 1880 Rector K. A. Heikel of the Kittila parish was the first editor and following him Aatu Laitinen was editor until l911. The name of the paper was changed to Words from Zion and later the name was changed to Words of Grace (Armon Sanoma). The papers were individual efforts. Laitinen owned the paper later. The paper spread to all Laestadian areas. Heikel criticized Juhoni Takkinen’s “ABC Book” of spiritual teachings that Takkinen had published in America. Takkinen was greatly offended as he had managed to enroll seven hundred new subscribers to the paper. Pastor Heikel was an example of one of the several young ordained ministers who became a convert and supporter of the Laestadian movement and defended Laestadian to the state church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, but being eventually rejected by the movement. Aatu Laitinen suffered the same fate. The Laestadian Movement is essentially a lay movement and it has been frequently said that ordained education ministers do not qualify for the bow or even the stern in the Laestadian ship but that they may row in the middle.
 
The training of ministers as generally practiced by the Laestadians may be of special interest to the seminarians. The education of ministers in the First Born sect of Laestadians generally indicates the training of ministers in all other sects of the Laestadians. In northern Finland, Sweden and Norway among the First Born young or middle aged men begin speaker training as Sunday school teachers and then go on as readers of the text for older ministers in the Sunday service. Then after a while the young inexperienced men begin to accompany older experienced preachers to the pulpit. In all cases it was deemed necessary that the young man in training be under the guidance of an older experienced preacher. In fact ministers could say whose students they were. This was an effective method of teaching ministers for preaching mission journeys would extend for weeks. It was important for the young trainee to study the Bible with his senior guiding minister. In this way he learned more about the Bible and the care of souls. It was recognized that a few of the trainees became speakers very quickly because of the very special blessing of the Holy Spirit. It is said that Juhoni Takkinen became a speaker very soon after his conversion. Though training of ministers even among the First Born has changed yet their training of ministers illustrates well past practice in almost all the Lasestadian groups. John Runtti became a preacher at l8-19 years of age. As the revival waned the age of the ministers rose. In Finland there was no other training for lay preachers. In the New Awakenist group there is some type of institute established to train ministers. Once an year ministers gather for training discussions but there is no required attendance for any one. Very important is that there are many Laestadian university and seminary trained ministers who are serving as pastors in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, the state church. There are some in Sweden and many in Finland. Their training in the university and the seminary is the same as for all other ordained ministers. The Laestadian seminary student at the university seminary may adopt one or the other of opposite attitudes toward university seminary training for the ministry. A university professor ventured this opinion: Some of the Laestadian seminary students are very careful that nothing of seminary training stick to them as they want nothing of the seminary training but find it necessary to qualify for a position from which to qualify for a position from which they may preach the true gospel as they see it. Many Laestadian seminary students, of course, are earnest in garnering all the knowledge possible and then subjecting all of it to their best criteria for evaluation. This, of course, is the most difficult road. Many university seminary trained Laestadian ministers have given their whole hearted support to this mode of ministerial training.

…

To have a Laestadian seminary in Finland as you have here in America is against the Laestadian heritage and consequently would arouse much opposition in Finland. A criticism leveled against Salomon Korteniemi who preached in the Copper Peninsula in l872-l878 was that he wrote his sermons. According to Laestadian tradition the minister is to open his mouth and whatever comes out is by the Holy Spirit. When this is said, it seems forgotten that the early Laestadian ministers studied scriptures diligently. Certainly, hardly a day went by that they were not preparing a sermon with the Bible. But they did not call it preparing a sermon. It is very difficult to change these old attitudes. Tradition says Laestadius wrote all his sermons. (In fact he wrote sermons for his student ministers to deliver). There were reasons why Laestadius wrote all his sermons. His native language was Swedish and though he knew Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and German he did not know Finnish and he needed to learn Finnish in order to preach to the Finns in Kaaresuvanto (Karesuando) parish. On the other hand we can be thankful that God so ordained that Laestadius wrote out his sermons and consequently they were preserved for posterity in his Postilla.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Are you going to convert to it, Syro? If you do, just watch out for the trolls under the fjord bridges outside the monastery in Norway lol.
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haha… convert? I don’t think they’d take my kind… I like to write my speeches!😛
 
Pekka Raittila responds to questions from participants. "How many ordained ministers are there in Finland compared to the number of lay preachers? one asks. Perhaps there are three lay preachers to one ordained minister. There are about two hundred Laestadian ministers serving the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (Suomen Evankelisluterilainen Kirkko). If the ordained ministers are satisfied to serve in a middle position among the lay preachers and not in the bow or stern but in the middle then the relationship of lay and ordained ministers is good. If the ordained ministers end up in positions of leadership in the Laestadian congregation than a power struggle can result. During the l960 division there was clearly a power struggle between the pastors and the lay preachers. In l934 a similar struggle took place. Rigid confrontations do not take place frequently but there is an ongoing anxiety. Among the First Born there are no trained pastors in America but there may be a few in Finland. The Laestadian pastors in the state church, The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, are vulnerable in that they are engaged in many activities and must participate in the confession of faith with which the Laestadians do not totally agree or support. A question from a participant: “In Finland and America Lutheran pastors take an oath to uphold the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Small Catechism. Where has this originated?”, one asks. Pekka, This goes back in history to 1550 at the Uppsala meeting to a statement of faith of the state Lutheran church of Sweden. Finland at that time was a part of Sweden. By this oath one becomes a member of the Lutheran World Federation. I do not know how this oath came to America but it does appear in the early l900s in the process of legalizing congregation. Though Laestadians have had some concern about the interpretation of some books of the Augsburg Confession, The Book of Concord, yet no Laestadian group would say that the Book of Concord is not acceptable as a basis for faith. When the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and Luther’s Small Catechism and other confessional books are correctly interpreted then the Laestadians can accept them as a basis for the Gospel.

Officially a lay preacher may speak in the state church if he has official permission. Lay preachers from the United States have preached in the state church in Helsinki for example. Only ordained pastors of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland may administer the sacraments and perform the official rites of the church. As members of the state church, The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, all Laestadians participate in the sacraments and rituals of the church. Baptism, confirmation, communion, weddings and funerals are performed for Laestadians by pastors of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, the state church.
 
JonNC said:
They are a small group, of Finnish origin I believe. Rather pietistic, and very low church liturgically. No my particular cup of tea.

A couple of quotes from their website:
The Holy Bible (KJV) and the Lutheran Confessions are the doctrinal foundation in Conservative Laestadianism. Centermost is the sermon of Jesus’ suffering, death, and resurrection. The work of Christ continues in this world as the work of the Holy Spirit in His congregation.

The second one is a red flag for me:
Communion is a memorial meal established by Jesus. It is intended for believers for the strengthening of their faith. :hmmm:

Jon
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Wow there are a lot more Lutherans than I thought. My mother was totally convinced only Wisconsin Synod Lutherans were correct. I am doing some reading this weekend on Lutheran theology. It’s very interesting.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
That is an extremely weak argument since women’s ordination wasn’t even considered 500 years ago. BTW, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the Lutheran World Federation encompassing nearly 90% of all Lutherans as the official body representing the Lutheran faith. They even discuss the issue of women’s ordination. Per your reasoning, the Pope is consulting with the wrong Lutherans. :confused:
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You figured that one out. Rome has been consulting with liberal Lutherans. LWF is in favor of homosexual marriage, open communion, women’s and homosexual ordination.
 
steido01 said:
Sure. Let’s start with an easy one. Many of the state churches in Europe, which profess to be Lutheran, also practice women’s ordination. Yet the Augsburg Confession, which is the measure by which an ecclesial body can rightly call itself Lutheran, specifically notes:

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Unless the Augsburg Confession is no longer considered the measure of a Lutheran, it would seem those that practice women’s ordination are not Lutheran.

I’m more than willing to discuss Augsburg article-by-article with you, if you’d so desire. I await your response.
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To be fair, the pronoun “he” can be used in a place were the gender of the referent is indeterminate so I think one could consistently hold this article and believe in women’s ordination. Not that I say anyone, Catholic or Lutheran, should practice women’s ordination.
 
QNDNNDQDCE said:
To be fair, the pronoun “he” can be used in a place were the gender of the referent is indeterminate so I think one could consistently hold this article and believe in women’s ordination. Not that I say anyone, Catholic or Lutheran, should practice women’s ordination.
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Is this also true in Latin, High German and Greek? These were the original languages of Confessio Augustana.

Even if this were the case, the context and intended meaning ought to be clear. “Ordination” of women is a radical departure from the intended purpose of the writers.
 
Not sure about German and Greek, but it is definitely true in Latin that the masculine gender is the default when speaking of people of mixed or indeterminate gender. I think it is most likely that the Lutherans never even dreamed of women ministers, so they simply don’t address it. I think a better argument is to fall back on our favorite Scripture verses.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Tim. 2:11-12)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
 
steido01 said:
Is this also true in Latin, High German and Greek? These were the original languages of Confessio Augustana.
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The pronoun isn’t there in the German and Latin texts. I haven’t checked the Greek text.
steido01 said:
Even if this were the case, the context and intended meaning ought to be clear. “Ordination” of women is a radical departure from the intended purpose of the writers.
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And I agree. It is better to ignore the pronoun (since it is not present in the original texts) and argue, rather, as I have done here, that the ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopate departs from Scripture and the faith of the Church Fathers, the faith that the early Lutherans claimed to follow (cf. Confessio Augustana, articles I-III and XXI).
 
KjetilK said:
The pronoun isn’t there in the German and Latin texts. I haven’t checked the Greek text.

And I agree. It is better to ignore the pronoun (since it is not present in the original texts) and argue, rather, as I have done here, that the ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopate departs from Scripture and the faith of the Church Fathers, the faith that the early Lutherans claimed to follow (cf. Confessio Augustana, articles I-III and XXI).
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Thank you for the knowledgable response - I truly appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut here. Thank you for the redirection.
 
SyroMalankara said:
What is the position of in general and specific Synod Lutherans on the Laestadian Lutherans?
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To go back to the OP, this depends on where you are. There are Laestadian Lutherans in the Church of Norway who are very much Lutherans, and who are sometimes even more high church than other Lutherans.

They also oppose the ordination of women to the priesthood. I have a friend who worked as a priest last summer in an area with many Laestadians, and is also working there this summer. He said, last year, that the diocese (the second northernmost diocese in Norway) was planning on hiring a woman priest in the area. He said that, regardless of your opinion on women priests, this would be a disaster. The Laestadians in the area told him that if a woman priest got the job, they would not attend any of her services, and would go somewhere else. And the area is like 70-80% Laestadian.
 
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