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Will_Pick
Guest
I knew the answer but on another forum a person was trying to tell they where Catholic,Thank you for your answer
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Pjs2ejs
Guest
Little Sheep, whether you think the Lutherans broke off from the church or not, they are what they are today. And that is not part of the Catholic Church.
I think the only thing that Luther was right about was that there was some abuse in the church. As far as his theology, he became his sole authority and well, the Lutherans sole authority. He bacame his own magesterium and thought that his interpretation was more accurate than the church that Jesus started.
Since the 95 theses, the church has fixed the abuse problems without changing any doctrines and is today the most true Christian church. Yes, we have our problems, we are run by human beings.The church will never change its doctrines. Why change the truth.
And by the way, what was it that Luther was right about?
I think the only thing that Luther was right about was that there was some abuse in the church. As far as his theology, he became his sole authority and well, the Lutherans sole authority. He bacame his own magesterium and thought that his interpretation was more accurate than the church that Jesus started.
Since the 95 theses, the church has fixed the abuse problems without changing any doctrines and is today the most true Christian church. Yes, we have our problems, we are run by human beings.The church will never change its doctrines. Why change the truth.
And by the way, what was it that Luther was right about?
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BOBKAT
Guest
For all intense purposes people ex communicate themselves by disobediance. Luther could have and should have found another way to get his point across and that also goes for the bishops who represented the church also for they were part of the problem as well, however pride entered the ring and that is when all the divisions came about. The church cannot change the Truth and should not either. I have alot of respect for Lutherans and maybe someday we will unite because we do have a friend in Jesus and that is best starting point to have.
God Bless
Kathleen
katewithak:
God Bless
Kathleen
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littlesheep
Guest
What was Martin Luther right about?
You really didn’t want to ask that of a Lutheran now did you?
Are you baiting me?
In the chance that you would really like to know.
Lets start with Scripture alone.
Roll of your eyes, a sigh under your breath “Here we go again.”
But hear me out.
Where is the only place where we can be sure of that is Truth? Ha! Got you there you Lutheran “The Church” meaning Scripture and Tradition. As interpreted by the what? “The Church of course.” In a system of checks and balances, where are the checks and balances in that definition. “ Oh “But the gates of hell will never prevail against it”” So true.
Now lets take an everyday occurrence. “You have read Hoyle’s Rules of Cards. By Gosh you are ready to play some poker (not that any good Catholic would do that.) You know the rules of every poker game in the book. And you know where to find them in the book. You set down at a table and ask what are you playing? “5 card stud with Jacks wild High” Ok you say I know how to play that, been practicing with the kids and been beating the pants off them”. Dealer deals and you get 3 Aces and 2 Kings. “Wow” you think to yourself. Betting goes on until everyone either calls or folds. You show your hand thinking nobody can beat it. So it would seem. Here is where Tradition kicks in. In the Tradition of the people you were playing with, the guy across the table jumps up and say “Yes, Yes, Thank the stars I won” You look at him dumbfounded. See his lowly jack three seven two and ten of hearts and spades is not a winning hand as far as you can see… “What” you say “Well” he says “We have always played if you get this hand it was a winning hand. Its tradition at this table. Who is right and who is wrong?
Scripture is the NORMING of the Faith. It is the Checks and Balances to keep strange thing from happening. It is the only thing that we can point to and say “thus says the Lord” it is infallible Truth. If Tradition goes against Scripture Which one is right?
Tradition has its place but it is not on the same par as Hoyle. The Lutherans “Book of Concord” has its place, but it is not the Norming of Scripture, Scripture is the Norming of The BOC.
“Got you there Lutheran Luther Tossed out 7 books for the bible”
Question did he toss out Scripture ortTradition? What doctrine of the church is found in those books. “Ah Praying to the Saints”.
I’ll leave this for now and answer that one next, if you really want to know
You really didn’t want to ask that of a Lutheran now did you?
Are you baiting me?
In the chance that you would really like to know.
Lets start with Scripture alone.
Roll of your eyes, a sigh under your breath “Here we go again.”
But hear me out.
Where is the only place where we can be sure of that is Truth? Ha! Got you there you Lutheran “The Church” meaning Scripture and Tradition. As interpreted by the what? “The Church of course.” In a system of checks and balances, where are the checks and balances in that definition. “ Oh “But the gates of hell will never prevail against it”” So true.
Now lets take an everyday occurrence. “You have read Hoyle’s Rules of Cards. By Gosh you are ready to play some poker (not that any good Catholic would do that.) You know the rules of every poker game in the book. And you know where to find them in the book. You set down at a table and ask what are you playing? “5 card stud with Jacks wild High” Ok you say I know how to play that, been practicing with the kids and been beating the pants off them”. Dealer deals and you get 3 Aces and 2 Kings. “Wow” you think to yourself. Betting goes on until everyone either calls or folds. You show your hand thinking nobody can beat it. So it would seem. Here is where Tradition kicks in. In the Tradition of the people you were playing with, the guy across the table jumps up and say “Yes, Yes, Thank the stars I won” You look at him dumbfounded. See his lowly jack three seven two and ten of hearts and spades is not a winning hand as far as you can see… “What” you say “Well” he says “We have always played if you get this hand it was a winning hand. Its tradition at this table. Who is right and who is wrong?
Scripture is the NORMING of the Faith. It is the Checks and Balances to keep strange thing from happening. It is the only thing that we can point to and say “thus says the Lord” it is infallible Truth. If Tradition goes against Scripture Which one is right?
Tradition has its place but it is not on the same par as Hoyle. The Lutherans “Book of Concord” has its place, but it is not the Norming of Scripture, Scripture is the Norming of The BOC.
“Got you there Lutheran Luther Tossed out 7 books for the bible”
Question did he toss out Scripture ortTradition? What doctrine of the church is found in those books. “Ah Praying to the Saints”.
I’ll leave this for now and answer that one next, if you really want to know
P
Pjs2ejs
Guest
Little Sheep. Wow, the whole cards thing really confused me. As far as Scripture Alone. What do you mean by scripture? You mean the bible? The one that fell down from heaven to the Apostles when Jesus Ascended to Heaven? Wait, no, there wasn’t one then. It actually was written by the Catholic Church and compiled in the 4th century. Your entire faith is based on whether the Church had the authority to put the Word of God in one book. You are trusting that the Catholic Church did not mistranslate any of the bible. Your faith is relying Solely on the Catholic Church.
Now, where does it say Scripture Alone in the bible is our only authority? I will show you where Jesus gave Peter authority. I will show you where Paul says the written and spoken word are to be followed. You have probably heard this all before so I don’t want to waste your time.
Tell me how you come to your conclusion that the Bible is your only authority. I want scripture, history, tradition, anything.
Now, where does it say Scripture Alone in the bible is our only authority? I will show you where Jesus gave Peter authority. I will show you where Paul says the written and spoken word are to be followed. You have probably heard this all before so I don’t want to waste your time.
Tell me how you come to your conclusion that the Bible is your only authority. I want scripture, history, tradition, anything.
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IanS
Guest
Hi LittleSheep:
Looks like our ELCA friends are nowhere to be found on my “Questions for Lutherans” thread, so I thought I would join the little “Bible only” debate here.
Sola scriptura goes against the Bible itself!
Scripture tells us that Christ founded a Church with divine authority to govern in His name. Here are just a few examples:
*Matthew 16
13: Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
14: And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15: He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16: Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
20: Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
Matthew 18
18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 10
16: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.*
The Bible also tells us to follow **Sacred Tradition ** along with Sacred Scripture:
*2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2 Thess 3:6 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.*
The doctrine of sola scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible. In fact it tells us that we need more than the Bible alone. The Bible confirms that we must also hold fast to oral tradition, the preached word of God:
*2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Jn 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
1 Cointh 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
1 Peter 1:25: but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That *word ** is the good news which was preached to you.
In fact, St. Peter goes so far as to say that Sacred Scripture can be difficult to interpret, strongly implying that we need an authoritative interpreter:
2 Peter
15: And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16: speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
Finally Timothy tells us that it is the Church that is the “pillar and bulwark of truth”.
1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Looks like our ELCA friends are nowhere to be found on my “Questions for Lutherans” thread, so I thought I would join the little “Bible only” debate here.
Sola scriptura goes against the Bible itself!
Scripture tells us that Christ founded a Church with divine authority to govern in His name. Here are just a few examples:
*Matthew 16
13: Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
14: And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15: He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16: Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17: And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
20: Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
Matthew 18
18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 10
16: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.*
The Bible also tells us to follow **Sacred Tradition ** along with Sacred Scripture:
*2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2 Thess 3:6 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.*
The doctrine of sola scriptura is not found anywhere in the Bible. In fact it tells us that we need more than the Bible alone. The Bible confirms that we must also hold fast to oral tradition, the preached word of God:
*2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Jn 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
1 Cointh 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
1 Peter 1:25: but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That *word ** is the good news which was preached to you.
In fact, St. Peter goes so far as to say that Sacred Scripture can be difficult to interpret, strongly implying that we need an authoritative interpreter:
2 Peter
15: And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16: speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
Finally Timothy tells us that it is the Church that is the “pillar and bulwark of truth”.
1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
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exoflare
Guest
No, silly… don’t you know the first Bible was the Old English NKJV 1611 (authorized) written by King James!
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scylla
Guest
I just downloaded the Book of Concord and found an interesting part which kinda states that the Pope is the Antichrist.
Is this what Catholics should accept to unite with Lutherans?
On another note, I was at a Mass this weekend where a retired Lutheran pastor visited. I will hopefully visit him in about 10 minutes and ask him why he isn’t Catholic since he seemed to hold very Catholic ideas when I heard him speak.
I think many times the things that divide us are overexaggerated. Martin Luther sure didn’t help anything by writing framing beliefs in such a divisive manner. Most Lutherans are much more charitable and much better Christians than Martin Luther ever was, and if they can look beyond his beliefs there is hope.
God Bless
Scylla
Is this what Catholics should accept to unite with Lutherans?
On another note, I was at a Mass this weekend where a retired Lutheran pastor visited. I will hopefully visit him in about 10 minutes and ask him why he isn’t Catholic since he seemed to hold very Catholic ideas when I heard him speak.
I think many times the things that divide us are overexaggerated. Martin Luther sure didn’t help anything by writing framing beliefs in such a divisive manner. Most Lutherans are much more charitable and much better Christians than Martin Luther ever was, and if they can look beyond his beliefs there is hope.
God Bless
Scylla
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littlesheep
Guest
Awww ! Now you ruined my whole argument by giving away my secret. I was going to pull the NKJV out of my hat after you accused me of using the KJV. Which by the way did not fall from heaven in 1611. It had to have dropped a couple of years before; It just took King James a couple of years to find it. The new one dropped out of the sky in 1982, onto some guy’s desk, they didn’t have to go looking for it.
pulled this from my thread and revised and expanded a little
One of the things that I have a hard time with is when Tradition becomes dogma, a little history lesson.
There was a man who once fought against tradition when it had become dogma. Now this man was a very good man, he followed the traditions of his time up to a point. See at eight days he was circumcised. At the age of 12 he was Bar Mitzvahed, but at 30 he started to rile against some of the church’s tradition. Most of what he taught rubbed the church leaders the wrong way. These church leaders had a lot of Tradition behind them, almost 1500 years worth and his teachings went against the grain. So much so that the church leaders with whom he was in conflict with hated him. He was breaking their Traditions left and right. It took them 3 years, but they finally had him nailed to a cross. His story has been written down for us in 4 books. What was is source of his teachings “Have you not read?”
Matt 12:3 He said to them, "** Have you not read** what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Matt 12:5 Or** *have you not read ***in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Matt 19:4 He answered, " ***Have you not read ***that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Mark 12:10 Have you not read this Scripture: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
Where is the appeal to Tradition in those passages? Seems like He is talking about Scripture to me.
Luke 24:27&32 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the Scriptures?”
Jesus taught Scripture, not Tradition. It was Tradition that was the stumbling block. Why didn’t the Priest and the other leaders recognize Christ? Oh they knew Scripture inside and out but it was Tradition that blinded them. This man can’t be the Messiah; He isn’t doing what the Messiah should be doing.
When John the Baptist (not to be confused with his brother Bill the Methodist) Ask Jesus “Are you the one who is to come,…?. What did Jesus reply? Matt 11: 4 “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
Which is pointed John right back to the Scriptures. Isa 35:5 ,6a Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy.
When Paul, Peter, and the rest of the Apostles were preaching. How did they show that Jesus was the Christ? They pointed to Scripture Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: - Stephen when he confessed Christ in Acts 7 what did he point to? Pauls teaching in the synagogue in Acts 13:14-52 Scripture . Where did the Barrens go to when Paul preached Christ to them? Tradition? No,Scripture…
Now we can set here and trade Bible passages all day. But I don’t know how I can make it any clearer then that. Scripture alone.
yes less then 5000
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littlesheep
Guest
Oh Oh now I better go and get my ducks in a row, That is going to get me alot of questions .
K
katewithak
Guest
Who’s being silly now? That Bible that fell out of the sky was so inaccurate that it needed The Book of Mormon partly found on gold plates to explain what all the Bibles really meant. the world was much relieved to receive the BOM in the late 1800’s so they could finally read all the other Bibles properly. Way to go, Joseph Smith. Right on, man! I mean right arm, man!No, silly… don’t you know the first Bible was the Old English NKJV 1611 (authorized) written by King James!
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Catholic29
Guest
Martin Luther founded the Lutheran branch of Protestantism on October 31 1517 AD, today it is known as Reformation Sunday. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church
And all substantiated evidence proves Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church in the year 33 AD. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism
So the fundamental difference is that Lutheranism was founded by a man (Martin Luther) nearly 1500 years after someone claiming to be the Messiah (Jesus Christ) founded Catholicism (also includes Eastern, not just Roman).
And all substantiated evidence proves Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church in the year 33 AD. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism
So the fundamental difference is that Lutheranism was founded by a man (Martin Luther) nearly 1500 years after someone claiming to be the Messiah (Jesus Christ) founded Catholicism (also includes Eastern, not just Roman).
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littlesheep
Guest
I know that I’m fair game becuse I’m Lutheran, but can we stick to the subject? Which is:
And if you let me, I will get to your point after I get this question answered. Which might take a few more post. cuse I’m only on Scripture alone. Got two more to go.
Thanks for your point. Please go to my thread What is saving Faith and give your answer.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Probably not.
It depends on how much anti-catholicism influenced his life growing up. That in itself points to a lack of unity and/or uniformity within the Lutheran nation.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Yes he was excommunicated. And for good reason. He spouted numerous heresies including these:
Luther rejected the book of Esther. He says: “I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist.” In his “Bondage of the Will,”
He rejected the book of Jonah. He says: “The history of Jonah is so monstrous as to be absolutely incredible.” (Colloquia, Chap. LX., Sec. 10).
He rejected Hebrews: “The Epistle to the Hebrews is not by St. Paul; nor, indeed, by any apostle.” (Standing Preface to Luther’s New Testament).
He rejected the Epistle of James: “St. James’ Epistle is truly an epistle of straw.” (Preface to Edition of 1524).
He rejected Jude. “The Epistle of Jude,” he says, “allegeth stories and sayings which have no place in Scripture." (Standing Preface).
He rejected Revelation. He says: “I can discover no trace that it is established by the Holy Spirit.” (Preface to Edition of 1622).
Until we say Luther was right? Oh my God
This heretic denied scripture itself!
Littlesheep, you need to do some serious historical research!
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IanS
Guest
Littlesheep:
Exactly what Jewish traditions or customs did Jesus hate so much? Did he really hate the traditions themselves or just the attitude of those who practiced them without faith? He came to fulfill Tradition, not abolish it. If the Scribes and Pharisees viewed it differently, that was their problem, not His. Please don’t make the Word Made Flesh out to be nothing more than some political rebel like the National Geographic Channel does.
I agree with not just throwing out passages at one another, because there are some that talk about the importance of scripture and some that talk about the importance of tradition, right? Which is exactly why the Catholic Church values Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. To do anything else goes against what the Bible tells us and good old common sense.
Any written document meant to play a crucial role in determining how people live must have a living, continuing authority to guard, guarantee, and officially interpret it. Otherwise, chaos would reign as everyone interpreted the document according to his own personal whim. Thus, your 6000 plus protestant denominations in this country.
The Founding Fathers of this country put together a magnificent document to authoritatively determine how this country would be governed: the US Constitution. They also founded a continuing living authority to guard, guarantee, and be official interpreters of it: The Supreme Court.
The Founding Fathers knew that without any living authority over the Constitution there would be endless division in this country as each person became their own interpreter. If the Founding Fathers wouldn’t leave something as important as the US Constitution without any authoritative body, do you really think God would? There is no way He would have left anything written to be the only rule if faith without a living continuous authority to guard and officially interpret it.
It if for these reasons the fullness of truth must stand on thee legs, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magestarium. You don’t need to be an astrophysicist to see what happens when one or two of those legs are pulled out from underneath what God left for us.
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littlesheep
Guest
G3551
νόμος
nomos; from νέμωnemō *(to parcel out); that which is assigned, *hence *usage, law: - *Law (193), laws (2), principle (1).
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
I think you mis-quoted.
νόμος
nomos; from νέμωnemō *(to parcel out); that which is assigned, *hence *usage, law: - *Law (193), laws (2), principle (1).
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
I think you mis-quoted.
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IanS
Guest
I wasn’t trying to directly quote this passage. Otherwise, I would have used it.
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bengal_fan
Guest
Will Pick:
lutherans are lutherans. prostestant denomination. if they were catholic, they would be “catholic”.
i had a teacher who used to say, “there is no such thing as a stupid question.” i think she was just proven wrong.
lutherans are lutherans. prostestant denomination. if they were catholic, they would be “catholic”.
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littlesheep
Guest
Then are you NOT equating tradition to law, right? See because I’m trying real hard to put the best construction on that statement. So please explain what you mean by “He came to fulfill Tradition, not abolish it"
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