S
Steadfast
Guest
But when Luther says it it’s terrible, that’s all I am saying:
Chrysostom says it and it’s orthodox, Luther says it and he’s an anti-semite and a forerunner to the Nazi’s.
It just doesn’t compute.
- Status
Chrysostom says it and it’s orthodox, Luther says it and he’s an anti-semite and a forerunner to the Nazi’s.
It just doesn’t compute.
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
Agreed.
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
Chrysostom denounced the Jewish religion and such, but he did not urge violence against the Jews, as Luther did.
S
Steadfast
Guest
Read Psalm 5 where it tells us that God hates the wicked.
And indeed, read every psalm where David or Asaph protest their hatred for the wicked and do so in a way that makes clear their expectation that they have this hatred in common with God.
S
Seraphim25
Guest
Jews are still very much part of Gods salvation plan. Just as when Joseph revealed who he was to his brothers so to Christ will reveal himself to his brothers. It will be glorious at that day when the Jews finally recognized their messiah the Christ the logos of old, the word that they had rejected will finally accept and behold his glory!
S
Steadfast
Guest
You should read Chrysostom some time.
The difference between he and Luther is that John had much to say about the despicability of Jews as Jews, not merely of their rejection of the Christ. He used all his considerable eloquence to explain how degenerate and inferior, almost inhuman he believed them to be.
And he did so not in one document but in a series of eight sermons.
Luther on the other hand, calls them stubborn and stiff necked and though he does call for their removal from Christian lands and the seizure of their synagogues, he never calls for their deaths or for their physical punishment.
John doesn’t either, but the reaction to the sermon series of Chrysostom was pretty much the same as what was seen in the wake of Luther’s diatribe.
It had the same net effect whether actual call was made for action or not.
S
Steadfast
Guest
The Church is the only Israel of God. If any man would be saved, Jew or Gentile, let him repent and believe on the One God has sent.
If he will not believe, Jew or Gentile, he is already lost.
S
Seraphim25
Guest
I have read Psalms the hymns of David. David just like God hates the wicked the proud and their “gods”. It is an abomination before his Majesty to have idols any the many other godless deeds. I truly tell you God still loved them. Christ tells us as we were enemies of GOD he sent is son to us to save us from our sins! I am wicked and deserve the punishment of death but does god hate me? Of course not that is why we must pray always for everyone.
It has been said an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. but I say to you love your enemies! The OT also displays mercy on the enemies of the Jewish nation Israel when they were blundering and robbing from god? For god shows mercy to whom he wills and his wrath to whom he wills. Just as Pharaohs heart was hardened to show his power!
It has been said an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. but I say to you love your enemies! The OT also displays mercy on the enemies of the Jewish nation Israel when they were blundering and robbing from god? For god shows mercy to whom he wills and his wrath to whom he wills. Just as Pharaohs heart was hardened to show his power!
S
Steadfast
Guest
S
Steadfast
Guest
Here’s the thing.
Nobody needs to make any excuses for Luther, he was excessive and vitriolic but he was also a product of his time and felt pretty much the same way most medieval Germans felt about the Jews.
To his favor it is worth pointing out that early on he was fond of pointing out that salvation came from the Jews and that Jesus was a Jew and he was always grateful for the scholarship he was beneficiary of when it came time to learn Hebrew.
Their rejection of his “liberated Gospel” is what prompted the diatribe.
We don’t have to join him in that diatribe, but neither do we have to pretend that it was an isolated example in the history of the church of overstating the the exclusivity of Christian soteriological claims against the Jews specifically.
History is rife with such examples.
Nobody needs to make any excuses for Luther, he was excessive and vitriolic but he was also a product of his time and felt pretty much the same way most medieval Germans felt about the Jews.
To his favor it is worth pointing out that early on he was fond of pointing out that salvation came from the Jews and that Jesus was a Jew and he was always grateful for the scholarship he was beneficiary of when it came time to learn Hebrew.
Their rejection of his “liberated Gospel” is what prompted the diatribe.
We don’t have to join him in that diatribe, but neither do we have to pretend that it was an isolated example in the history of the church of overstating the the exclusivity of Christian soteriological claims against the Jews specifically.
History is rife with such examples.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
I understand from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, that Jews were good people till they started breaking the covenant, mentioned hereunder:
Quran
[3:80] It does not befit a truthful man that Allah should give him the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, and then he should say to men, 'Be my worshippers instead of Allah; but he would say, ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the book and because you study it’.
[3:81] Nor does it befit him that he should bid you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords. What! Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God.
[3:82] **And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying, ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ And He said, ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree.’ He said, ‘Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.’ **
[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors.Unquote
But the Jews instead of accepting and honouring the Prophets became their opponents.
So JesusYeshuaIssa charge sheeted them:
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.Unquote
The Jews could get the salvation if they repent to GodAllahYHWH , ask forgiveness from Him and accept all the truthful ProphetsMessengers.
It must be understood that denying even one truthful ProphetMessenger is denying the entire institution of Prophethood and hence breaking the Covenant.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
I understand from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, that Jews were good people till they started breaking the covenant, mentioned hereunder:
Quran
[3:80] It does not befit a truthful man that Allah should give him the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, and then he should say to men, 'Be my worshippers instead of Allah; but he would say, ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the book and because you study it’.
[3:81] Nor does it befit him that he should bid you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords. What! Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God.
[3:82] **And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying, ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ And He said, ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree.’ He said, ‘Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.’ **
[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors.Unquote
But the Jews instead of accepting and honouring the Prophets became their opponents.
So JesusYeshuaIssa charge sheeted them:
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.Unquote
The Jews could get the salvation if they repent to GodAllahYHWH , ask forgiveness from Him and accept all the truthful ProphetsMessengers.
It must be understood that denying even one truthful ProphetMessenger is denying the entire institution of Prophethood and hence breaking the Covenant.
Thanks
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Indeed 
- it was part of the culture, & it had a tradition of centuries to go on. It could claim to be founded on Biblical texts,& it was re-inforced by preaching & the Liturgy. And would be for a long time to come 
Germany produced some pretty poisonous anti-Jewish stuff during the “ages of faith” - & the blood libel can hardly have helped. See Norman Cohn, “The Pursuit of the Millennium”, for details - he has much to say of how the figure of the Jew was diabolised in literary tradition.
That’s all independent of the man himself. ISTM that Luther looks like a Nazi ideologue only because we are looking back to his times with the Shoah as part of our memory - it comes between his time & ours, so it colours our perceptions. The same applies to anti-Jewish invective by others - would Catholics have vilified Jews, if they had foreseen Dachau & Belsen ? Hatred is fine, until it comes home to roost.Why do people of today hate whatever they hate - [insert name of hated group as applicable] ?
S
Steadfast
Guest
Geer, Luther looks like a Nazi because the Nazi’s coopted him and, to our shame, the Lutheran Church leaders of the time eagerly supported Hitler’s regime.
Much more so than did Catholics by and large, but it has to be said that by this time the Reformation churches in Germany were so wrecked by the High Liberalism of the Aufklarung and the Romanticism of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries that, really, they had no abiding faith to speak of.
Much more so than did Catholics by and large, but it has to be said that by this time the Reformation churches in Germany were so wrecked by the High Liberalism of the Aufklarung and the Romanticism of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries that, really, they had no abiding faith to speak of.
C
Contarini
Guest
No, he didn’t. However, he did live at a time when the survival of Jews was not in doubt–Jews had a secure and valued place in the Roman Empire, so you’re right that the context is different than that of the late Middle Ages, when Luther and many other Christians railed against a vulnerable and threatened Jewish population, and when pious Catholic monarchs considered it a meritorious act to hound Jews out of their country and then turn the Inquisition loose on those who feigned conversion in order to keep their homes.
Edwin
- Status