Luther's music in the Mass

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JesuXPIPassio said:
Say what you will, but in our Church’s view, Luther was a heretic and we most certainly do not consider him a saint. Also, I didn’t say that he’s burning in hell – that came from the writings of Saint Teresa of Avila, someone whom the Catholic Church does view as a saint.

Furthermore, in my original post, I never said that there are any doctrinal reasons against the text of the song. As I said, it is more about an implied endorsement of Luther than it is about the actual song. I used to like A Mighty Fortress myself until I looked in the fine print and saw who wrote it.

And once again, even if we just base it on historical reasons, A Mighty Fortress isn’t a song fit for Catholics, because it was the anthem of the people who fought against the Church. You know the songs of the US Revolutionary War? Would it make sense to sing those songs at ceremonies with the Queen of England? Even if they’re songs that are about general patriotism and have nothing about the US or the UK in it, would it ever be appropriate to have these songs there?

If I can bring in another example, the Italian Monarchy captured the Papal States. The Pope and the Italian King were at odds. Would it make sense, then, to have the Swiss Guards play the Italian anthem before the Pope? Wouldn’t this be an insult to the Pope?

Please remember that this is from a Catholic perspective – a perspective that does *not *view Luther as a saint, a perspective that took after Saint Teresa of Avila, among others. So the question isn’t about the song. It’s about Luther. Having hymns written by him is practically an endorsement of him and his beliefs – this is something that contradicts five centuries of Catholic opposition to Luther.

Oldfogey put it aptly when he compared it to having a hymn written by Judas Iscariot. Why have a hymn written by Judas when we have a bunch written by, say, Saint Thomas Aquinas? Frankly, the truth is that we view Luther more closely to Judas than we do to Saint Thomas Aquinas.
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Well, ok. I’ll stop listening to Mozart because he was a Mason. My Bach scores? I’ll be sure to burn them before I defile a Mass with his “protestant” music. Wow, just think of all the hymn tunes we’ll have to throw out because they were written by protestants. I guess “Holy God, we Praise Thy Name” will have to go… and oh no, the beloved chorale setting of “Tantum Ergo” will have to go too. Oh, wait… the Chant? I think Luther sang that. Well, darn, there go the Ordinaries --oh no, Kyrie Eleison is Greek! And on Holy Friday we sing the Trisagion!!! :mad: Can’t have any Orthodox music at our Masses–…

OY VEY, get a grip, man. I understand and appreciate your zeal to defend Holy Mother Church, but rejecting even the notes penned by Protestants? That’s taking things way too far. Believe you me, the version of “A Mighty Fortress” that is sung at Mass is nothing like the text that Luther penned. Not the latter verses, anyway. As I and other posters have already stated, the Church goes out of her way to sanctify beautiful things that were once not Catholic. 😃
 
It is a bit weird to be singing Luther in the mass.

But then again the song is basically a psalm set to music so there can’t be much wrong with it. And the normal tune is great too - unless played as a dirge in which case the experience of singing the hymn is not a happy one.

It causes mild nervousness for the woman who runs our choir. She used to be a Lutheran and they used to sing the song every year on “Reformation Sunday”.

Personally I’m more annoyed at having to sing Graham Kendrick songs. That’s just from personal tastes though. I didn’t become Catholic so that I could keep on singing “Shine Jesus Shine”. 🙂
 
And on that note, “For All the Saints”, which we just sung on All Saints’ Day would have to go because that was originally a Protestant hymn too! Like I said in my earlier post, as long as there is nothing in the hymn that is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, I have no problem with Protestant hymns. Many of the traditional Protestant hymns are more in line with Catholic teaching than many of the newer songs that the OCP hymnals :bigyikes: seem to push on us nowadays! I’ll take “Amazing Grace” or “O God Our Help in Ages Past” any day over “Sing a New Church” or “Gather Us In”.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
You know the songs of the US Revolutionary War? Would it make sense to sing those songs at ceremonies with the Queen of England? Even if they’re songs that are about general patriotism and have nothing about the US or the UK in it, would it ever be appropriate to have these songs there?
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I can give you a specific example that contradicts this. “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” was a war anthem for the north during the Civil War, yet it is sung in Churches throughout the south.
 
well I can’t post a poll since the thread has already started but let’s vote: If you could only eliminate one song from the current liturgical repertoire what would it be?
A Mighty Fortress
Peace is Flowing like a River
Gather us in
Amazing Grace
Lord of the Dance
Day by Day
All are Welcome
Awesome God
 
puzzleannie said:
well I can’t post a poll since the thread has already started but let’s vote: If you could only eliminate one song from the current liturgical repertoire what would it be?
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Just one???

Good question, BTW.

I would go with “Lord of the Dance.” It is the most “huh?” song among this list. If I were not limited to one song, I still would not pick them all, though.
 
Well some of the men considered church fathers fell into heresy, but we still read many of their works as edifying. Turtillian and Origen I can name off the top of my head (I know the spelling is wrong.)
 
Yeah, I was a little bothered at first by the fact that “A Mighty Fortress” is not only one of Luther’s hymns but is considered the “Hymn of the Reformation.” Once I actually looked at the words, it’s not really a problem.

I am in the Chapel Choir at my college (Grove City, affilliated with the PCUSA), and we sing for a Sunday night Vespers service. All of the choir pieces and all but maybe 1 or 2 congregational hymns (from the Presbyterian Hymnal) that we have sung over the course of the last 3 years haven’t offended my sensibilities. In the case of the rare few congregational hymns that I couldn’t agree with theologically, I just didn’t sing those parts. Maybe they’ve just chosen hymns that are “less Protestant” in their expression, but I’m not really sure

That’s not to say that any or all of those hymns should be used for Mass. Though I will agree with whoever it was that said many of them are better than some of the Catholic hymns we have now.
CatholicNerd,

I have to give you a huge amount of credit. I’m also 21, and see what you’re doing to be a great amount of responsibility. This is especially because your age means you probably wouldn’t get much respect if you wanted to make even small changes.

I do have a resource for you that may be useful to you and anyone else trying to teach/learn chant and Gregorian Notation: Gregorian Chant for the Teacher, the Choir, and the School, by Edmund G. Hurley. It’s available here as a free (public domain) pdf e-book.
 
lak611 said:
To me, the Protestant hymns are more correct than some of the Marty Haugen/David Haas, OCP hymnal junk out there!
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I couldn’t agree more. We have some Lutheran families that we became friends with from of our sons’ school. And you know what, I can talk religion more with them and find common ground more than I can with some “Spirit of Vatican II” Catholic types. Here’s why.

The Lutherans seem to have the perspective of taking the whole of historic Christianity, including when they were part of the Catholic Church. Kind of like a tree that breaks off into different branches. Even though we’re apart from being on two different branches, there is still that common trunk (about 1500 years) before the reformation.

Many “Spirit of Vatican II” Catholics talk like only the ancient history of the Church as valid (maybe about 4 centuries) , then think that the Church went into some type of mideval spiritual “Dark Ages” until 1965. Then the real Catholic Church was somehow restored after VII. Anything in those 1500 interim years was somehow bad.

Note the difference reformation vs restoration.

Now don’t get me wrong. I am a traditionalist Catholic who loves to go to the TLM. But it is sad that I keep getting this impression over and over about my fellow Catholics. Anyone else have the same experiences?
 
Protestant Churches are the means of salvation though and it would be presumptious to say someone is in hell. But, for someone like St. Teresa of Avila, who was alive during the Protestant Reformation, it might be possible that that is something only attributed to that time. At that time, people were definitely heretical and after knowing the truths of the Catholic Church they rejected them for partial truth. They were formal heretics and I do not want to sound harsh, but I am very angry of what the Reformers did, and I think, unlike the Protestants of today, they are responsible for what has happened. Of course, I could not blame them, because it is wrong, and the Catholic Church had some problems at that time. But, they are part of the cause of this sad state that Christianity is in, to some degree. It is divided, and people even consider Christians of other traditions, pagans, idolaters,etc. This is not what Jesus wanted! The Protestants at that time do not compare with the Protestants of today. Were as, many Protestants of today are in good faith, and are capable of being saved, the Protestants of that day knew what they were doing, at least most of them. I don’t know if I am right, but I think that Luther even broke his vows as a monk.

I hope God has mercy on them, and forgives them and us for what has happened. However, I do not assume they are in hell. I pray that God will reunite his Church swiftly. And all of the darkness of the past will be forgotten.
 
Asperges_Me said:
I couldn’t agree more. We have some Lutheran families that we became friends with from of our sons’ school. And you know what, I can talk religion more with them and find common ground more than I can with some “Spirit of Vatican II” Catholic types. Here’s why.

The Lutherans seem to have the perspective of taking the whole of historic Christianity, including when they were part of the Catholic Church. Kind of like a tree that breaks off into different branches. Even though we’re apart from being on two different branches, there is still that common trunk (about 1500 years) before the reformation.

Many “Spirit of Vatican II” Catholics talk like only the ancient history of the Church as valid (maybe about 4 centuries) , then think that the Church went in some type of mideval spiritual “Dark Ages” until 1965. Then the real Catholic Church was somehow restored after VII. Anything in those 1500 interim years was somehow bad.

Note the difference reformation vs restoration.

Now don’t get me wrong. I am a traditionalist Catholic who loves to go to the TLM. But it is sad that I keep getting this impression over and over about my fellow Catholics. Anyone else have the same experiences?
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Most of the Catholics I know see the history of Catholic Church as full and valid. It is important that those Catholics are informed about their mistakes. I find Protestants somewhat a little harder to talk to because of the differences. Yet I understand that they are Christians.
I often have a difficult time talking to Protestants in general, because of their misconceptions of my Faith and my misconceptions of theirs. It is actually easier for me to talk to fellow Catholics because of their similarities. I find Anglicans of all Protestants more likely to be able to talk to. They understand because their Church is in a similar structure of the Catholic Church.
Any hymns that talk about Jesus, with good sound, wether Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox or Oriental are my favorite.
 
Image_of_God said:
I don’t know if I am right, but I think that Luther even broke his vows as a monk.

I hope God has mercy on them, and forgives them and us for what has happened. However, I do not assume they are in hell. I pray that God will reunite his Church swiftly. And all of the darkness of the past will be forgotten.
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That he did 😦 Unfortunately, he led his future wife to do it, too. Katherine Von Bora was a nun (who had taken her vows in 1515 but had lived in the convent almost her entire life)… sigh I agree that most of the “Reformers” knew what they were doing and I think it’s a travesty that many protestants are not familiar with their own ecclesial communions’ histories. That said, though, I still think songs like “A Mighty Fortress” are wonderful things.

With all my whining about the state of sacred music in the Church, my mother and grandmother have lost almost all interest in investigating the Catholic faith :crying: But when I told mother that we sang a hymn to the tune of “A Mighty Fortress” on the Vigil of All Saints (how’s that for irony?) her ears perked up again. I am definitely a fan of being “All things to all men” so that some might be saved. At least for now. If the text of a hymn is not in line with Catholic doctrine, I’ll change it and distribute photocopies out of my own pocket if I have to. It gets expensive, but it’s worth it. Hymns like A Mighty Fortress are a nice stop on the way to restoring the chanted propers of the Mass, which are almost completely made up of psalm texts anyway 😃
 
CatholicNerd said:
That he did 😦 Unfortunately, he led his future wife to do it, too. Katherine Von Bora was a nun (who had taken her vows in 1515 but had lived in the convent almost her entire life)… sigh I agree that most of the “Reformers” knew what they were doing and I think it’s a travesty that many protestants are not familiar with their own ecclesial communions’ histories. That said, though, I still think songs like “A Mighty Fortress” are wonderful things.

With all my whining about the state of sacred music in the Church, my mother and grandmother have lost almost all interest in investigating the Catholic faith :crying: But when I told mother that we sang a hymn to the tune of “A Mighty Fortress” on the Vigil of All Saints (how’s that for irony?) her ears perked up again. I am definitely a fan of being “All things to all men” so that some might be saved. At least for now. If the text of a hymn is not in line with Catholic doctrine, I’ll change it and distribute photocopies out of my own pocket if I have to. It gets expensive, but it’s worth it. Hymns like A Mighty Fortress are a nice stop on the way to restoring the chanted propers of the Mass, which are almost completely made up of psalm texts anyway 😃
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I believe that it does not matter where a hymn comes from, as long as it is not against Catholic Doctrine, as you said, and that it is focused on Jesus, I believe it is okay. I believe “America the Beautiful” is a Protestant song, yet very rich and wonderful.

And it was very unfortunate that the Protestants of that time were doing those terrible things. We must remind Protestants in general, what the Church was like before the Reformation and the Great Schism. We forget that the Catholic Church did say that we must remind them of the beauty that their Church has, but the beauty that they are missing.🙂
The Protestant Reformation was anything but a joyful event, spiritually and physically. It caused wars and many heresies. But God will heal. I am also very sorry that your grandparents have lost interest in their Faith. But I know God will heal all of us, his people hurt by sin and heresy and corruption.
 
puzzleannie said:
well I can’t post a poll since the thread has already started but let’s vote: If you could only eliminate one song from the current liturgical repertoire what would it be?
A Mighty Fortress
Peace is Flowing like a River
Gather us in
Amazing Grace
Lord of the Dance
Day by Day
All are Welcome
Awesome God
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Amazing Grace – they say that it doesn’t fit in with doctrine. Whether or not that’s true, I really don’t know.
 
puzzleannie said:
well I can’t post a poll since the thread has already started but let’s vote: If you could only eliminate one song from the current liturgical repertoire what would it be?
A Mighty Fortress
Peace is Flowing like a River
Gather us in
Amazing Grace
Lord of the Dance
Day by Day
All are Welcome
Awesome God
Click to expand...
I couldn’t just eliminate one. Both “Gather Us In” and “All Are Welcome” would be gathered and unwelcomed by me! 😃
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
Say what you will, but in our Church’s view, Luther was a heretic and we most certainly do not consider him a saint. Also, I didn’t say that he’s burning in hell – that came from the writings of Saint Teresa of Avila, someone whom the Catholic Church does view as a saint.

Furthermore, in my original post, I never said that there are any doctrinal reasons against the text of the song. As I said, it is more about an implied endorsement of Luther than it is about the actual song. I used to like A Mighty Fortress myself until I looked in the fine print and saw who wrote it.

And once again, even if we just base it on historical reasons, A Mighty Fortress isn’t a song fit for Catholics, because it was the anthem of the people who fought against the Church. You know the songs of the US Revolutionary War? Would it make sense to sing those songs at ceremonies with the Queen of England? Even if they’re songs that are about general patriotism and have nothing about the US or the UK in it, would it ever be appropriate to have these songs there?

If I can bring in another example, the Italian Monarchy captured the Papal States. The Pope and the Italian King were at odds. Would it make sense, then, to have the Swiss Guards play the Italian anthem before the Pope? Wouldn’t this be an insult to the Pope?

Please remember that this is from a Catholic perspective – a perspective that does *not *view Luther as a saint, a perspective that took after Saint Teresa of Avila, among others. So the question isn’t about the song. It’s about Luther. Having hymns written by him is practically an endorsement of him and his beliefs – this is something that contradicts five centuries of Catholic opposition to Luther.

Oldfogey put it aptly when he compared it to having a hymn written by Judas Iscariot. Why have a hymn written by Judas when we have a bunch written by, say, Saint Thomas Aquinas? Frankly, the truth is that we view Luther more closely to Judas than we do to Saint Thomas Aquinas.
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You remind me of the fundamentalist preachers I used to hear preaching on the campus commons in my college days. “A Christian can never listen to Rock Music because the origin of rock is in pagan African drum rhythems”. We would respond with “but what about Christian rock?” And he’d say “it doesn’t matter…since it came from the devil it is forever corrupted and sinful”. Not a convincing argument then or now.
 
I have no problem with “Amazing Grace” because although I was baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant, I fell away as an adult. It wasn’t until I had a “born again experience” that I really understood my faith. So, yes, I was born again as an infant, but I had a born again experience as an adult. I don’t think we really ever stop having these experiences, and I believe that it is God’s Grace that led me back to the Catholic Church, because I certainly was not living the kind of life that would have brought me where I am today!
 
Interesting thing about All are Welcome? I have friend who had him as a high school teacher…apparently after he wrote it he left the priesthood and married. Now he teaches in a Catholic high school.
 
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