LXX & Masoretic Text

  • Thread starter Thread starter Augustine3
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Then there’s also the issue of the different versions of the Septuagint. First of all, there is the Old Greek (OG), which is the ‘original’. Between the original production of the LXX and the Greek versions of the 2nd century there were two early revisions. The earlier, dating from perhaps the 1st century BC, is called “proto-Lucian” because it shares characteristics with the revision attributed to Lucian of Antioch (4th century AD). It is called proto-Lucian because some of the readings it shares with the later Lucianic recension are reflected in both Josephus (1st century) and the Vetus Latina (2nd century). This revision represents a sporadic correction of the Old Greek toward the Palestinian textual family represented by the three Samuel texts found at Qumran.

The later revision is called the Kaige after its habit of rendering the Hebrew word Hebrew ו)גם) “and also” as kai ge. It dates to the late 1st century BC or the early 1st century AD and its overall character is seen as a revision of the Old Greek in the direction of conformity with the ancestor of the Masoretic text. The revision is noted for its use of stock renderings of particular Hebrew words and phrases (of which kai ge is one) that seem to be chosen primarily to give Greek readers a sense of what was in the original Hebrew, with little concern for whether the resulting translation was idiomatic Greek. A Kaige text which shows close relation to another revision of the Septuagint attributed to Theodotion (end of 2nd century) is called Kaige-Theodotion (Kaige-Th): the 1st-century Minor Prophets scroll from Naḥal Ḥever (8ḤevXII gr) is a Kaige-Th text. The extremely-literal Greek translation produced by Aquila of Sinope (ca. AD 140) was apparently influenced by Kaige-Th and is the fullest expression of the tendency to harmonize the Greek with the Hebrew. Theodotion’s version was somewhat later than Aquila’s, and his Greek is freer than Aquila’s stilted literalness. His religious affiliation is in doubt, but his version became popular with Christians, to the point that the rendering of Daniel attributed to him even came to replace the Old Greek version in the Church’s Greek OT.

Here’s a curious thing: whenever the book of Revelation cites from Daniel it always seems to quote Theodotion rather than the Old Greek. Since Revelation is usually dated to the last decade of the 1st century, you have the anomaly of a 1st century work citing a 2nd century version. Scholars have answered this by either proposing that Revelation uses a Kaige-Th version of Daniel or that the translation of Daniel attributed to Theodotion is actually not related to either proto-Theodotion or the traditional (2nd century AD) Theodotion, but is in fact a new translation of the Hebrew-Aramaic portions of the original book with some knowledge of Old Greek Daniel.

The last of the rival 2nd century AD versions was produced by Symmachus in the closing years of the century. Symmachus was the most gifted of the three, at least in terms of Greek style, and he produced an idiomatic translation that leans toward the paraphrase. His version had little impact on the subsequent history of the transmisson of the Septuagint, but it did exert quite an influence on St. Jerome and the Latin Vulgate.

By the end of the century there were (at least) four competing Greek versions of the Old Testament. The discrepancies between these four versions and their differences with respect to the Hebrew text were very bewildering. It was at this point that the early Christian author Origen, set out to bring order and understanding to the confusing array of competing textual witnesses to the OT text. His work resulted in a massive volume known as the Hexapla, a six-column work in which the existing Greek versions could be compared with the (proto-Masoretic) Hebrew text that was current in Origen’s time. In the first column was the contemporary Hebrew text, in the second a Greek transliteration of it, then Aquila, Symmachus, Origen’s own revision of the Old Greek, with special symbols that indicated whether material had been added or deleted in order to make it match the Hebrew text, and finally, Theodotion.

Perhaps the Hexapla was never copied in its entirety because of its sheer size. Origen’s revision of the Old Greek was copied frequently, however the editing marks were subsequently left out, and the older uncombined text of the LXX was neglected. In a way, Origen unwittingly added to the textual confusion he had aimed to resolve. Rhis combined text became the first major Christian recension of the Septuagint, often called the Hexaplar recension.

Two more Christians have left their mark on early Septuagint history: Lucian of Antioch and Hesychius. Lucian was a presbyter of Antioch who was martyred around AD 311. The peculiarity of his work on the Greek OT (the Lucianic) is a tendency to conflate two variant readings into a single reading. A ‘Hesychius’ also produced a Greek version (the Hesychian) around the same time (ca. AD 300), which is partly reflected in Codex Vaticanus.
 
A question for my Protestant friends.

Studies have shown the Old Testament has been quoted in the New Testament around 350 times and out of that over 300 have been taken from the Septuagint text. If that is the case, why do Protestant continue to use the Masoretic text?
c. 900 BC-200BC: Aleppo Codex (Masoretic Text); Hebrew-Old Testament
c. 200 BC: Septuagint (Greek Old Testament); Koine Greek (200 BC-600AD); [basis for the Old Latin, Slavonic, Syriac, Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Christian Old Testament]
c. 135-104 BC: Dead Sea Scrolls; Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek/Nabataean
c. 100 AD: Syriac Vulgate; Syriac-Old Testament
c. 160–175 AD: Diatessaron; Tatian the Assyrian; Latin/Greek Gospels
c. 200-300 AD: Vetus Latina (Old Latin Bible); Late Latin-Old/New Testament
c. 300 AD: Old Latin Codex Vercellensis; Bishop Eusebius of Vercelli; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 300-400 AD: Codex Veronensis; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 300-400 AD: Syriac Sinaitic (Sinaitic Palimpsest); Syriac-Gospels
c. 325–350 AD: Codex Vaticanus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 330–360 AD: Codex Sinaiticus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 370 AD: Doctrine of Addai at Edessa; Pauline Epistles added
382 AD: Latin Vulgate; Late Latin-translated from Greek-(Alexandrian Vulgate); commissioned by Pope Damasus I; translator, Saint Jerome Doctor of the Church; 400–1530 only approved Scripture by Western Catholicism; Old/New Testament
c. 400 AD: Syriac Vulgate (Peshitta); Syriac-New Testament
c. 400 AD: Codex Bobiensis; Latin-New Testament
c. 400 AD: Codex Bezae Cantabrigensis; Greek/Latin diglot-Gospels/Acts
c. 400 AD: Curetonian Syriac/Curetonian Gospels (Evangelion Dampharshe); Old Syriac
400-440 AD: Codex Alexandrinus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 400-500 AD: Codex Corbeiensis II; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Brixianus; Latin-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Argenteus; (Arians) Gothic-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Purpureus Beratinus; Greek-Gospels
c. 500-700 AD: Codex Climaci Rescriptus; Aramaic-Old/New Testament
541-546 AD: Codex Fuldensis; Latin Vulgate, Diatessaron translation, Pauline Epistles
545: Latin Codex Fuldensis; Old Latin; Diatessaron translation
c. 616: Harqel (Peshitta); Thomas of Harqel; Syriac-added more Epistles
c. 700: Codex Regius; Greek Gospels
c. 700: Codex Amiatinus; Latin Vulgate-( Book of Kells/Lindisfarne Gospels)
c. 700-900: Codex Corbeiensis I; Old Latin-New Testament
745-800: Codex Sangallensis (copy-Vetus Latina); Diatessaron translation; Old Latin/Old High German/Eastern Frankish/Old Saxon
c. 830: Old High German; Diatessaron translation
 
c. 900 BC-200BC: Aleppo Codex (Masoretic Text); Hebrew-Old Testament
c. 200 BC: Septuagint (Greek Old Testament); Koine Greek (200 BC-600AD); [basis for the Old Latin, Slavonic, Syriac, Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Christian Old Testament]
c. 135-104 BC: Dead Sea Scrolls; Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek/Nabataean
c. 100 AD: Syriac Vulgate; Syriac-Old Testament
c. 160–175 AD: Diatessaron; Tatian the Assyrian; Latin/Greek Gospels
c. 200-300 AD: Vetus Latina (Old Latin Bible); Late Latin-Old/New Testament
c. 300 AD: Old Latin Codex Vercellensis; Bishop Eusebius of Vercelli; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 300-400 AD: Codex Veronensis; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 300-400 AD: Syriac Sinaitic (Sinaitic Palimpsest); Syriac-Gospels
c. 325–350 AD: Codex Vaticanus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 330–360 AD: Codex Sinaiticus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 370 AD: Doctrine of Addai at Edessa; Pauline Epistles added
382 AD: Latin Vulgate; Late Latin-translated from Greek-(Alexandrian Vulgate); commissioned by Pope Damasus I; translator, Saint Jerome Doctor of the Church; 400–1530 only approved Scripture by Western Catholicism; Old/New Testament
c. 400 AD: Syriac Vulgate (Peshitta); Syriac-New Testament
c. 400 AD: Codex Bobiensis; Latin-New Testament
c. 400 AD: Codex Bezae Cantabrigensis; Greek/Latin diglot-Gospels/Acts
c. 400 AD: Curetonian Syriac/Curetonian Gospels (Evangelion Dampharshe); Old Syriac
400-440 AD: Codex Alexandrinus; Greek-Old/New Testament
c. 400-500 AD: Codex Corbeiensis II; Old Latin-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Brixianus; Latin-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Argenteus; (Arians) Gothic-Gospels
c. 500 AD: Codex Purpureus Beratinus; Greek-Gospels
c. 500-700 AD: Codex Climaci Rescriptus; Aramaic-Old/New Testament
541-546 AD: Codex Fuldensis; Latin Vulgate, Diatessaron translation, Pauline Epistles
545: Latin Codex Fuldensis; Old Latin; Diatessaron translation
c. 616: Harqel (Peshitta); Thomas of Harqel; Syriac-added more Epistles
c. 700: Codex Regius; Greek Gospels
c. 700: Codex Amiatinus; Latin Vulgate-( Book of Kells/Lindisfarne Gospels)
c. 700-900: Codex Corbeiensis I; Old Latin-New Testament
745-800: Codex Sangallensis (copy-Vetus Latina); Diatessaron translation; Old Latin/Old High German/Eastern Frankish/Old Saxon
c. 830: Old High German; Diatessaron translation
Where do you get this timeline from? And the Aleppo Codex dates from about 930.
 
c. 900 BC-200BC: Aleppo Codex (Masoretic Text); Hebrew-Old Testament
c. 200 BC: Septuagint (Greek Old Testament); Koine Greek (200 BC-600AD); [basis for the Old Latin, Slavonic, Syriac, Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Christian Old Testament]
c. 135-104 BC: Dead Sea Scrolls; Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek/Nabataean
…]
c. 830: Old High German; Diatessaron translation
I don’t understand this answer. Could you please elaborate?
 
What is it about the Masoretic text that is so good it overrides the opinions of the church fathers who are in favour of the Septuagint? Since we know there are many text types
 
The Semitic Masoretic canon existed circa “around, about” 900’s BC and remained as the primary usage of the Semitic-Jewish Kingdoms until circa 200’s BC.

Philip II of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great, Hegemon of the Hellenic League, expanded the Greek Empire to include Jewish cultures across North Africa, Judea, Israel, Syria, Babylon, some of Persia, and Asia Minor. The Alexandrian Koine language became the primary form of speech for conquered Hellenic-Jews (circa 300’s - 200’s BC) under the Hellenic Greeks. The Kione Septuagint remained in use as the primary canon from (circa 200’s BC through 600’s AD) for the regional Jews.

Semitic-Hebrew/Aramaic languages use larger vocabularies with more precise meaning and emotion. Greek Kione has a small vocabulary designed to be more universal and interchangeable. A singular Kione word can have several different meanings or usages depending on which culture it’s spoken among. Translation is very vague if the authorship can’t be verified to a specific geography where a known usage or application of a word can be clearly implied. The Semitic-Hebrew/Aramaic on the other hand has 17 words for winking alone with each physical action carrying a different emotion with it. The precision of Semitic language translates with much greater accuracy as a result with it more narrowly defining itself.

The Syriac language, of Edessa and Antioch (currently Turkey), in the Empire of Armenia, was a hybrid of Hellenic Greek and Semitic-Hebrew/Aramaic. This language is broadly considered modern day Arabic, but back then served as a median to understanding of how old Semitic is more accurately translated into Kione Greek with better understanding of how the usage of Kione was originally intended from the Semitic perspective. Syriac helps to fill in the gaps were Semitic translation has been lost over the centuries. A shift from Alexandrian Manuscripts to Antioch/Edessa Manuscripts would be necessary to accurately form doctrines that more closely affiliate with the authors’ intended meanings.

The earliest Westernized translations came from translations of translations in Kione Greek, rather than the root Semitic languages known to the Old Testament. That’s why St. Jerome, Luther, and many others have sought after the root languages for a more direct translation, rather than relying on a series of fortuitous translations passed down. This is why the Vetus was replaced by the Catholic Church, under St. Jerome, to the Vulgate Latin/Greek. The meaning of words progressively change with time so translating off modern translations carry the current, not past intended, usage of word context. Modern language translated out of the most ancient root available will always produce a more accurate and purer translation. Also, any translation mistakes of modern translations will carry over too if it can’t be verified against older Codex.
 
What is it about the Masoretic text that is so good it overrides the opinions of the church fathers who are in favour of the Septuagint? Since we know there are many text types
Nobody said it overrode the opinions of the Church Fathers. And besides, the opinions of the Church Fathers, while valuable, do not necessarily constitute authoritative magisterial teaching (some of them had very unusual interpretations of Scripture, some were mildly anti-Semitic, and some, like Tertullian and Origen, had theological issues and ended up believing things we would say are not orthodox now).

The point is that the preference of the Church Fathers for the LXX should not lead someone to demonize the Masoretic Text. Most of the arguments put forward on here against the MT amount to “The LXX was quoted by Jesus and the Apostles, and besides the MT is icky.” I am yet to see some reason having to actually do with the text that should tell me I shouldn’t use the MT. As I’ve brought up, most modern translations, even Catholics ones, use both Greek and Hebrew sources for the OT to try to produce a synthesis of the best texts. The main strand of argument on this thread seems to be that the LXX has some sort of divine quality (even though it is a translation from Hebrew manuscripts), while the MT is somehow bad. I think this is an unnecessary and unhelpful way to look at it–use both, both have their advantages and their disadvantages, e.g. did you know that there are sections, like in Jeremiah and Job, that are missing in the LXX that are found in the MT? And we’re supposed to think that the MT is somehow inferior because of alleged missing material? No–textual variants are what they are.

-ACEGC
 
Nobody said it overrode the opinions of the Church Fathers. And besides, the opinions of the Church Fathers, while valuable, do not necessarily constitute authoritative magisterial teaching (some of them had very unusual interpretations of Scripture, some were mildly anti-Semitic, and some, like Tertullian and Origen, had theological issues and ended up believing things we would say are not orthodox now).

The point is that the preference of the Church Fathers for the LXX should not lead someone to demonize the Masoretic Text. Most of the arguments put forward on here against the MT amount to “The LXX was quoted by Jesus and the Apostles, and besides the MT is icky.” I am yet to see some reason having to actually do with the text that should tell me I shouldn’t use the MT. As I’ve brought up, most modern translations, even Catholics ones, use both Greek and Hebrew sources for the OT to try to produce a synthesis of the best texts. The main strand of argument on this thread seems to be that the LXX has some sort of divine quality (even though it is a translation from Hebrew manuscripts), while the MT is somehow bad. I think this is an unnecessary and unhelpful way to look at it–use both, both have their advantages and their disadvantages, e.g. did you know that there are sections, like in Jeremiah and Job, that are missing in the LXX that are found in the MT? And we’re supposed to think that the MT is somehow inferior because of alleged missing material? No–textual variants are what they are.

-ACEGC
If its good enough for Christ, the apostles an the church fathers its good enough for me. I wouldnt write off church fathers, infinitely more holy than most alive today as “anti semitic” when we do not have the information about in which context those comments were made. I have a hard time believing that these pious men who most of them in their life achieved actual theosis would be anti semitical, hateful or bigoted. Such feelings are anti thetical o union with God. I’m ready to at least take their comments inti consideration that maybe there was an anti christian agenda? i dont think one could provoke holy men into such vicious attacks of they did not see a grave danger to the souls of their people. I dont know any if any of todays textual critics of the me generation would be ready to be martyred for their faith

All authority I need and its strange to me that this fact isnt good enough for todays christians in the west. Just cuz its hebrew doesnt make it better. What we know today of ancient Old Testament manuscripts is that there were several different text types used by the jewish community. If the alexandrian manuscript who is presumed to have been the basis for the septuagint, was used by the so called hellenic jews. I prefer that over the more nationalistic masoretic because it feels line the actual text used by the fathers and mostly quoted by tve Apostles and God incarnate id the one which will provide my soul with the better nourishment. I also like the poetic language better

Today there is bo sense of the sacred left. All is profane, especially in the west. Salvation and religion is called a mystery but appearsto be a legal system of do’s and dont’s. The fact that catholics & protestants prefer the masoretic over the septuagint only further increases my suspicion that catholicism is actually closer to protestantism than orthodoxy. This is only one part where the symptoms of the division can be seen but its a whole different view of the salvation in Christ and the actual revance of the Holy fathers seems completely lost to the new spirits of the age.
 
Nobody said it overrode the opinions of the Church Fathers. And besides, the opinions of the Church Fathers, while valuable, do not necessarily constitute authoritative magisterial teaching (some of them had very unusual interpretations of Scripture, some were mildly anti-Semitic, and some, like Tertullian and Origen, had theological issues and ended up believing things we would say are not orthodox now).
The Church Fathers are the Magisterium of their time. When all the Church Fathers agree on something, that is authoritative (Consensus Patrum).
The Church Fathers agreed that the LXX is of divine origin and the one to be used, not the defective hebrew one. Ergo, the LXX is the best.

Origen and Tertullian were in error, yes. But their errors aren´t Consensus Patrum, therefore not authoritative, which is logical.

And the Church Fathers weren´t anti-semitic. That´s illogical. The Apostles were hebrew. Jesus was hebrew. Even some of the Fathers were semitic (St. John of Damascus). Another thing is that they were anti-Jewish (the religion) and that´s totally fine.
The point is that the preference of the Church Fathers for the LXX should not lead someone to demonize the Masoretic Text. Most of the arguments put forward on here against the MT amount to “The LXX was quoted by Jesus and the Apostles, and besides the MT is icky.” I am yet to see some reason having to actually do with the text that should tell me I shouldn’t use the MT.
So you are basically telling us that “The Church Fathers are biased towards Christianity”?
Look, this is very easy:
-The LXX is divinely inspired, the MT not.
-The Fathers tell us to use the LXX, not the MT. (i.e. St. Augustine)
-The Jews don´t believe in Chirst, therefore, their bible is going to be biased towards their point of view. We believe in Chirst, therefore we shouldn´t use the Jew´s bible.
-The LXX has the “deuterocanonicals”, the MT doesn´t.
-The MT is altered and violated. onbehalfofall.org/2012/02/03/making-goliath-a-giant/
As I’ve brought up, most modern translations, even Catholics ones, use both Greek and Hebrew sources for the OT to try to produce a synthesis of the best texts.
When you mix Truth with something False the result is going to be a Half-Truth, or Total Falsehood.
The main strand of argument on this thread seems to be that the LXX has some sort of divine quality (even though it is a translation from Hebrew manuscripts), while the MT is somehow bad. I think this is an unnecessary and unhelpful way to look at it–use both, both have their advantages and their disadvantages, e.g. did you know that there are sections, like in Jeremiah and Job, that are missing in the LXX that are found in the MT?
Yes, the LXX is divine, the MT isn´t; end of the story.
And we’re supposed to think that the MT is somehow inferior because of alleged missing material? No–textual variants are what they are.
-ACEGC
The MT is used by the same people that said no to Chirst, God, and his covenant and plan of salvation. It is inferior.
 
A few final things I’ll point out before I’m done with this thread.

First, you say that the reason LXX>MT is that the MT is a Jewish version of the Scriptures, while the LXX is Christian. Except for the fact that the Seventy were Alexandrian Jews. It was not a Christian version of the Scriptures because such a thing didn’t exist for a good while after the time of Christ.

I do find it interesting that in response to my claim that there is mildly anti-Semitic content in some of the Fathers, first my comment is altered to say “The Church Fathers are anti-Semitic,” which is not what I said; second, that you go back and forth–first saying that it’s illogical that the Fathers were anti-Semitic (which again, I did not say) because Christ and the Apostles were Hebrews, and yet you yourself then say it’s perfectly okay to be against the Jewish religion. Perhaps that’s what I was saying, or perhaps you and I take “anti-Semitic” to mean two different things. I didn’t mean it as implying racism, so perhaps you’d get my meaning better if I’d said they were opposed to the Jewish religion.

I didn’t say the LXX is biased toward Christianity, for the simple fact that it predates Christianity. I never said anything like that at all. Putting words into someone’s mouth is not a good way to engage their arguments. I know that the LXX has the deuterocanon and the MT does not, although Hebrew manuscripts of the deuterocanon have been found. That the LXX is divinely inspired is a bit of a specious claim, as it was a translation from older Hebrew manuscripts–the principle of inspiration would hold that the author of the text was the one who was influenced by the Holy Spirit to write an inspired text, not the subsequent translators. Otherwise, King James Onlyism might have a leg to stand on, since the idea there is that somehow the KJV translation is inspired (even if this is implicit).

Basically you keep claiming over and over that the LXX is divine and the MT is not. Whether a text is divine has nothing to do with the argument I keep trying to make, which is from the standpoint of scholarship–in order to produce a translation, you have to examine all the available evidence. In some cases, as a text, the LXX is superior. In some cases, the MT is superior. In some cases, other manuscripts give us clues as well. I’m talking about this from the broad scholarly view, which takes into account a number of things. This is simply how translations get produced nowadays, and to continue to demonize it instead of actually considering the arguments of another way of looking at it can only be problematic.

-ACEGC
 
A few final things I’ll point out before I’m done with this thread.

First, you say that the reason LXX>MT is that the MT is a Jewish version of the Scriptures, while the LXX is Christian. Except for the fact that the Seventy were Alexandrian Jews. It was not a Christian version of the Scriptures because such a thing didn’t exist for a good while after the time of Christ.

I do find it interesting that in response to my claim that there is mildly anti-Semitic content in some of the Fathers, first my comment is altered to say “The Church Fathers are anti-Semitic,” which is not what I said; second, that you go back and forth–first saying that it’s illogical that the Fathers were anti-Semitic (which again, I did not say) because Christ and the Apostles were Hebrews, and yet you yourself then say it’s perfectly okay to be against the Jewish religion. Perhaps that’s what I was saying, or perhaps you and I take “anti-Semitic” to mean two different things. I didn’t mean it as implying racism, so perhaps you’d get my meaning better if I’d said they were opposed to the Jewish religion.

I didn’t say the LXX is biased toward Christianity, for the simple fact that it predates Christianity. I never said anything like that at all. Putting words into someone’s mouth is not a good way to engage their arguments. I know that the LXX has the deuterocanon and the MT does not, although Hebrew manuscripts of the deuterocanon have been found. That the LXX is divinely inspired is a bit of a specious claim, as it was a translation from older Hebrew manuscripts–the principle of inspiration would hold that the author of the text was the one who was influenced by the Holy Spirit to write an inspired text, not the subsequent translators. Otherwise, King James Onlyism might have a leg to stand on, since the idea there is that somehow the KJV translation is inspired (even if this is implicit).

Basically you keep claiming over and over that the LXX is divine and the MT is not. Whether a text is divine has nothing to do with the argument I keep trying to make, which is from the standpoint of scholarship–in order to produce a translation, you have to examine all the available evidence. In some cases, as a text, the LXX is superior. In some cases, the MT is superior. In some cases, other manuscripts give us clues as well. I’m talking about this from the broad scholarly view, which takes into account a number of things. This is simply how translations get produced nowadays, and to continue to demonize it instead of actually considering the arguments of another way of looking at it can only be problematic.

-ACEGC
First, I think you are under the false assumption that the Hebrew OT (the one before the LXX) is the same as the MT. They are not.
The MT is the one that is tampered.

Second, the LXX is Christian even if Christianity wasn’t around in that time:

en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_City_of_God/Book_XVIII/Chapter_42
By What Dispensation of God’s Providence the Sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament Were Translated Out of Hebrew into Greek, that They Might Be Made Known to All the Nations.
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_City_of_God/Book_XVIII/Chapter_43
Of the Authority of the Septuagint Translation, Which, Saving the Honor of the Hebrew Original, is to Be Preferred to All Translations.
en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_City_of_God/Book_XVIII/Chapter_44
How the Threat of the Destruction of the Ninevites is to Be Understood Which in the Hebrew Extends to Forty Days, While in the Septuagint It is Contracted to Three.
onbehalfofall.org/2012/03/31/saint-justin-and-the-divine-origin-of-the-septuagint/
Saint Justin and the Divine Origin of the Septuagint
onbehalfofall.org/2012/05/09/the-septuagint-and-textual-criticism/
The Septuagint and Textual Criticism
onbehalfofall.org/2012/06/25/if-its-good-enough-for-jesus-and-the-apostles/
If It’s Good Enough for Jesus and the Apostles: The LXX

As St. John Chrysostom wrote: “The Holy Spirit arranged for the Holy Books to be translated by the seventy interpreters…Christ came and received them. And the Apostles spread them everywhere” (Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews, Chapter VIII)
 
I’ll post a more coherent reply later, but for the meantime I have some questions. Where does St. Jerome and the Syriac Peshitta OT fit in all this? If the Septuagint is inspired, the question is: which Septuagint? The Old Greek? The proto-Lucianic? The Kaige-Theodotion? The Hexaplaric? Or some other version? And what about Theodotion’s Daniel, which had replaced the Old Greek Daniel in Christian versions? And what about the non-Septuagintal citations in Matthew and some other parts of the NT?
 
I’ll post a more coherent reply later, but for the meantime I have some questions. Where does St. Jerome and the Syriac Peshitta OT fit in all this? If the Septuagint is inspired, the question is: which Septuagint? The Old Greek? The proto-Lucianic? The Kaige-Theodotion? The Hexaplaric? Or some other version? And what about Theodotion’s Daniel, which had replaced the Old Greek Daniel in Christian versions? And what about the non-Septuagintal citations in Matthew and some other parts of the NT?
Revision of Vulgate
newadvent.org/cathen/15515b.htm
 
A few final things I’ll point out before I’m done with this thread.

First, you say that the reason LXX>MT is that the MT is a Jewish version of the Scriptures, while the LXX is Christian. Except for the fact that the Seventy were Alexandrian Jews. It was not a Christian version of the Scriptures because such a thing didn’t exist for a good while after the time of Christ.

I do find it interesting that in response to my claim that there is mildly anti-Semitic content in some of the Fathers, first my comment is altered to say “The Church Fathers are anti-Semitic,” which is not what I said; second, that you go back and forth–first saying that it’s illogical that the Fathers were anti-Semitic (which again, I did not say) because Christ and the Apostles were Hebrews, and yet you yourself then say it’s perfectly okay to be against the Jewish religion. Perhaps that’s what I was saying, or perhaps you and I take “anti-Semitic” to mean two different things. I didn’t mean it as implying racism, so perhaps you’d get my meaning better if I’d said they were opposed to the Jewish religion.

I didn’t say the LXX is biased toward Christianity, for the simple fact that it predates Christianity. I never said anything like that at all. Putting words into someone’s mouth is not a good way to engage their arguments. I know that the LXX has the deuterocanon and the MT does not, although Hebrew manuscripts of the deuterocanon have been found. That the LXX is divinely inspired is a bit of a specious claim, as it was a translation from older Hebrew manuscripts–the principle of inspiration would hold that the author of the text was the one who was influenced by the Holy Spirit to write an inspired text, not the subsequent translators. Otherwise, King James Onlyism might have a leg to stand on, since the idea there is that somehow the KJV translation is inspired (even if this is implicit).

Basically you keep claiming over and over that the LXX is divine and the MT is not. Whether a text is divine has nothing to do with the argument I keep trying to make, which is from the standpoint of scholarship–in order to produce a translation, you have to examine all the available evidence. In some cases, as a text, the LXX is superior. In some cases, the MT is superior. In some cases, other manuscripts give us clues as well. I’m talking about this from the broad scholarly view, which takes into account a number of things. This is simply how translations get produced nowadays, and to continue to demonize it instead of actually considering the arguments of another way of looking at it can only be problematic.

-ACEGC
You seem to write from the point of view that the reading of scripture is mainly an intellectual exercise in which one gathers plain information avout the historical will of God. This is why you can doubt the claim made by several of the Orthodox and Catholic churches most Holy fathers that the LXX is Divinely Inspired. I dont blame you, this seems to be the implicit majority consensus among the western scholars of christianity and has been for a long time. The orthodox took the Holy Fathers at their words and in Faith proclaimed the LXX to be “The” Old Testament of the church. The evidence surfacing today show us that neither is a Word for Word replica of the Torah of Moses, the he Prophets and the Writings of the Hebrew Tanach. Therefore we are left with a simple choice of whose opinions we consider more authoritative: the modern day textual critics and the vehemently anti-christian Rabbis of “rabbinical” Judaism OR the Church Fathers? Its a simple choice for me. The “Jews” who rejected Christ do not have my trust in safeguarding the word of Christ to every Christian. I’ve studies the scriptures in the jewish way, with jewish rabbinical commentaries and under its supervision and there is a fundamental difference in how we view scripture. The jews proclaim that every letter of the Hebrew Bible is the exact same as Moses recieved when evidence clearly proves this false. When a Christian reads the Bible it is always Christ that is THE key to unlock the fruits of the scriptures. In Judaism the Bible is very exclusively speaking Only to the “Nation of Israel” and the Hebrew bible clearly shows a certain favour to this kindnof reading compared to the Septuagint who is more Universal, like Christ. Also, we mustnt ever forget that it is the Church of Christ Jesus that is Israel.

As for which Septuagint we shall use I suggest the very same that IS authorized and used by the orthodox church.
 
I can only brief here on this thread.

I think there is also reason to say we cannot throw out all the Masoretic text…only because you cannot fragment peoples from one another who interact with each other in daily life.

You can’t label black or white.

Yes, our choice of interpretation and use of apocrypha we believe are inspired because they are essentially apostolic. But on the other hand, our roots are likewise Jewish.

I remember a Jewish rabbi who said when that day comes, the Christians will say, ‘See we were right!’ and the Jews will say, ‘See we were right’…the two lamp posts.
 
As for which Septuagint we shall use I suggest the very same that IS authorized and used by the orthodox church.
To pick nits further: you mean we should use the Hexaplaric-Lucianic-Hesychian Septuagint(s), with Theodotion’s Daniel? Why use them, since the Hexaplaric and Lucianic recensions (at least) represent attempts to ‘correct’ the OG with the (pre-Masoretic) Hebrew text current in their day? In fact, most of the different recensions of the Septuagint stem from the fact that the text was being ‘conformed’ with a particular Hebrew version.

A little something about the Greek versions of Tobit. There are around three main versions of Tobit circulating in the Greek: the shorter version (Greek I or G1) is the one found in most manuscripts and is the ‘standard’ form of the text, while the longer version (Greek II or G2) is found only in its full form (with two lacunae: 4:7-19b and 13:7-10b) in the Codex Sinaiticus, and partially in a couple other manuscripts. The Vetus Latina versions of Tobit are related to GII, apparently being translated from texts very close to it. Greek III (G3) is the least attested, preserved only partially in three cursive manuscripts (which give the text of G1 for the rest of the book).

For a long time, people assumed that the shorter version of Tobit (G1) is the original (due to its wide attestation, as well as due to the scholarly cliche of ‘the shorter reading is better’), with the ‘minority’ G2 being a later expansion of the text. The five Aramaic and Hebrew manuscripts of Tobit found in Qumran (4Q196-200, 1st century BC-1st century AD), however, put this theory into question: all of them generally agree with G2 (although they also sometimes agree with G1 in a few places). In some instances, the text provided could be shorter or longer, or at times agree more with the text of Vetus Latina Tobit over against G2. These fragments also exhibit some degree of minor variance with each other, which shows us that there was not really a fixed text of Tobit during the 1st century BC or the 1st century AD. Now the general idea is that G2, due to its support by G3, the Vetus Latina versions and the Qumran Tobit fragments might have been closer to the original version, with the majority version (G1) being a later, more streamlined epitome.
 
I can only brief here on this thread.

I think there is also reason to say we cannot throw out all the Masoretic text…only because you cannot fragment peoples from one another who interact with each other in daily life.

You can’t label black or white.

Yes, our choice of interpretation and use of apocrypha we believe are inspired because they are essentially apostolic. But on the other hand, our roots are likewise Jewish.

I remember a Jewish rabbi who said when that day comes, the Christians will say, ‘See we were right!’ and the Jews will say, ‘See we were right’…the two lamp posts.
Exactly. These “(insert favorite text/version)-onlyism” is a bit too extreme IMHO. I should note that the original Syriac Peshitta OT itself was a translation of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text, albeit with some variant renderings.
 
The Masoretic text is very valuable to us Catholics. The Hebrew texts before the MT did not have vowels so it was very easy to choose words that were not intended by the authors. If I’m not mistaken, one of the reasons why the Masoretes decided to compile their scripture was to produce a text with accurate words. We just have to be cautious of a few biased interpretations by the Masoretes e.g. Isaiah 7:14, Psalm 40:6 etc.
 
I was having breakfast with a group of cradle Catholics who have run businesses and raised children, and are now really coming into the fullness of their Catholic faith. I really enjoy listening to them and seeing their fervor and depth of faith.

One of them was sharing with us in his Catholic bible study how we follow the same tradition of interpretation as the apostles had studied and incorporated into their lives. The protestant version was reflecting Martin Luther’s desire to get back to the pure Hebrew text.

This thread demonstrates that we linguistically, culturally, and anthropologically, do not have fences around our language use, we do not remain inside our own subculture but are part of others of a general same moral code and faith in one, true God.

Thanks to everyone. I am having to go back and study each one’s post as there is alot there, however, brief, and return with new insights gained here to share back at the next breakfast table.

God bless!
 
To pick nits further: you mean we should use the Hexaplaric-Lucianic-Hesychian Septuagint(s), with Theodotion’s Daniel? Why use them, since the Hexaplaric and Lucianic recensions (at least) represent attempts to ‘correct’ the OG with the (pre-Masoretic) Hebrew text current in their day? In fact, most of the different recensions of the Septuagint stem from the fact that the text was being ‘conformed’ with a particular Hebrew version.

A little something about the Greek versions of Tobit. There are around three main versions of Tobit circulating in the Greek: the shorter version (Greek I or G1) is the one found in most manuscripts and is the ‘standard’ form of the text, while the longer version (Greek II or G2) is found only in its full form (with two lacunae: 4:7-19b and 13:7-10b) in the Codex Sinaiticus, and partially in a couple other manuscripts. The Vetus Latina versions of Tobit are related to GII, apparently being translated from texts very close to it. Greek III (G3) is the least attested, preserved only partially in three cursive manuscripts (which give the text of G1 for the rest of the book).

For a long time, people assumed that the shorter version of Tobit (G1) is the original (due to its wide attestation, as well as due to the scholarly cliche of ‘the shorter reading is better’), with the ‘minority’ G2 being a later expansion of the text. The five Aramaic and Hebrew manuscripts of Tobit found in Qumran (4Q196-200, 1st century BC-1st century AD), however, put this theory into question: all of them generally agree with G2 (although they also sometimes agree with G1 in a few places). In some instances, the text provided could be shorter or longer, or at times agree more with the text of Vetus Latina Tobit over against G2. These fragments also exhibit some degree of minor variance with each other, which shows us that there was not really a fixed text of Tobit during the 1st century BC or the 1st century AD. Now the general idea is that G2, due to its support by G3, the Vetus Latina versions and the Qumran Tobit fragments might have been closer to the original version, with the majority version (G1) being a later, more streamlined epitome.
Because the holiest saints says so. End of story

No scholars of the “me-generation” can override the fact that the Saintly Scholars of the early church said that the Greek Old Testament should be the standard. Therefor I think it should. We should use the one used by the Saints themselves.

We should follow the advice of the fathers and leave our minds behind and reach to where understanding can not reach

In reality. Catholicism is faaaar closer to Protestantism than orthodox christianity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top