LXX

[NotWorthy]

OK, I’ll have to do a little studying on this. I always thought the Sadducees were a great asset to the Pharisees in helping convict Jesus because of their specific views and their relationship with Rome, but not as a ruling Jewish force. Most Jews must have held them in disdain for aligning themselves with Rome - which also proved to be their downfall.

But now that I think of it. The Romans must have thought they have some sort of authority or they would not have had this sort of relationship.

The Romans were the ones who chose the High Priest during Jesus’ time. Who do YOU think they would select, the Sadducees who were willing to work with them? Or the Pharisees who wanted to rid Judea of Rome?

Do you recall Annias, who often consulted with Caiphas, the High Priest of Jesus’ time? Annias had been High Priest for some 18 years. Then Caiphas, his son-in-law was selected. After Caiphas, three of Annias sons were selected High Priest. One of them, Annias (Junior), was the one who had James the Apostle martyred. Also, Annias was in charge of selling the animals in the Jewish Temple to pilgrims. The courtyard was called the Courtyard of Annias, if I remember correctly. So yes, he wielded much power. I’m not naive enough to think that the Sadducees always wielded this kind of authority, but yes, they held authority in Judea at least during Jesus’ time.

That would make sense as far as needing them translated, except how did the books end up as pat of the Septuagint? The information we have the Jews didn’t have permission to translate any thing other than the Torah so it had to be done at a later time - over a period of time.

If Greek was the lingua franca, it would make perfect sense that the rest of the Scriptures would be translated into Greek. I don’t understand why this would be a problem.

But, why would Jews add more books to a pagan library without good cause? And why mix them with non-inspired books? The Septuagint is comprised of a collection of both secular and spurious writings, not just inspired Jewish Scriptures.

I wasn’t aware that there were secular and spurious writings among the Greek Scriptures. Where do you get that from?

Anyway, I think we can discount the 72 translators as a myth.

Ginger

I’m not sure about the “72 translators is a myth” statement. The legend that they all produced the exact same translation may be a myth, but I haven’t seen anything that would discount the 72 translators.

 

[bpbasilphx]

You might find this site useful:

orthodoxwiki.org/Septuagint

It has links to versions of the LXX on line.

Note that the article also says that in many places the LXX is more Christological than is the MT.

 

[patrick457]

Close. The Samaritans were the result of the lost tribes intermingling. I understand they were started by a rogue Levitical priest who was ousted from Jerusalem. This religion closely mimicked Judaism, even building a temple once or twice that was destroyed by the Jews and by the Romans. They only believed in the Torah as well.

The origin of the Samaritans are actually rather confusing. The Samaritans themselves claim that they are the direct descendants of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, some of whom remained after the Assyrian deportation.

And yes, they do claim that after Joshua died, Eli the priest - yes, that Eli from 1 Samuel! - left the Tabernacle which was on Mount Gerizim and built another one in Shiloh (which was in every respect identical to the original), establishing his own illegitimate place of worship and priesthood. Eventually, according to the Samaritans, the Israelites split into three factions: those who worshipped idols, those who followed Eli son of Yafni in his sanctuary in Shiloh, and the faithful remnant in Mount Gerizim, led by the high priest Uzzi/Ozzi son of Bukki. The Samaritans consider this to be the schism par excellence that split the people of Israel.

The Jews, meanwhile, say that the Samaritans were descendants of the people from Babylon, Kuthah, Avvah, Emath, and Sefarvayim, whom the king of the Assyrians sent to populate Samaria. Because God sent lions among them to kill them, the king of the Assyrians sent one of the priests from Bethel to teach the new settlers about God’s ordinances. The eventual result was that the new settlers worshipped both the God of the land and their own gods from the countries from which they came (2 Kings 17:24-30).

Now, an inscription by Sargon II records the deportation of a relatively small proportion of the Israelites (27,290, according to the annals), so it is quite possible that a sizable population remained in the land - the author of 2 Kings may have been using a sort of literary device when he said that “Israel” was deported (his emphasis was, after all, on how the northern kingdom got punished by joining other cults):

In the twelfth year of 'Akhaz king of Yehudah, Hoshea ben-Elah became king of Yisrael in Shomron for nine years. And he did evil in the eyes of YHWH, but not like the kings of Yisrael who were before him. Against him went up Shalmaneser king of Ashur; and Hoshea became his servant, and paid him tribute. And the king of Ashur found in Hoshea conspiracy, for he had sent messengers to So king of Egypt, and paid no tribute to the king of Ashur as he had done year by year. Therefore the king of Ashur restrained him and bound him in the house of confinement. The king of Ashur went up against the whole land, and went up to Samaria and besieged it for three years.
In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Ashur captured Shomron and carried Yisrael away to Ashur, and settled them in Chalakh, along the Chavor (the river of Gozan), and in the cities of the Madai.

For so it was that the sons of Yisrael had sinned against YHWH their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Mitzraim from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Mitzraim; and they had feared other gods, and walked in the statutes of the nations whom YHWH had driven out from before the sons of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they introduced. Also the sons of Yisrael said against YHWH their God things that were not right. They built bamot in all their cities, from the watchtower to the fortress. They set up sacred pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and they burned incense on all the bamot, just like the nations whom YHWH had driven away from before them; and they did evil things, provoking YHWH. They served the idols, about which YHWH had said to them, “You must not do this.”
Yet YHWH bore witness against Israel and against Judah, by all of His prophets, every visionary, saying, “Turn back from your evil ways and obey my commandments and statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers and which I sent to you by the hand of my servants, the prophets.” But they did not pay attention and they stiffened their neck like the neck of their fathers, who were not faithful to YHWH their God.

2 Kings 7:1-14

 

[patrick457]

For example, in addition to Anna being identified with Asher (Luke 2:36), 2 Chronicles 30:1-11 indicates that Asherites still lived in Galilee, even after the deportation to Assyria and explicitly mentions northern Israelites who had been spared by the Assyrians - in particular peoples of the tribes of Dan, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher and Zebulun - and how members of the latter three returned to worship at the Temple in Jerusalem during the reign of Hezekiah (reigned 715 BC-687 BC or 716 BC-687 BC):

Hezekiah sent to all Yisrael and Yehudah, and also wrote letters to Efrayim and Manashe, that they should come to the house of YHWH at Yerushalayim, to celebrate the Passover for YHWH, God of Yisrael, for the king and his officials and all the assembly in Yerushalayim had agreed to celebrate the Passover in the second month (since they could not celebrate it at that time because not enough priests had consecrated themselves and the people had not assembled in Jerusalem); and the thing was proper in the eyes of the king and all the assembly. And they established a decree to cause a voice to pass throughout Yisrael, from Be’er Sheva to Dan, that they should come to celebrate the Passover for YHWH, God of Israel at Jerusalem, for they had not celebrated it in great numbers as written.

The runners went throughout all Yisrael and Yehudah with the letters from the king and his officials; and according to the command of the king, saying:
“O sons of Israel, return to YHWH, God of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yisrael, so He may return to the survivors of you who have escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria. And do not be like your fathers and your brothers, who acted treacherously against YHWH, God of their fathers, and He made them a horror, as you can see.
Now, do not stiffen your neck like your fathers! Give a hand to YHWH and enter His sanctuary which He has consecrated to the ages. Serve YHWH your God that the burning of His nostrils might turn away from you, for if you return to YHWH, your brothers and sons will be find mercy before the faces of their captors and return to this land; for YHWH your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away His face from you if you return to Him.”
The runners passed over from city to city through the land of Efrayim and Manashe as far as Zevulun, and they were mocking them and ridiculing them. But some from Asher, Manashe, and Zevulun humbled themselves and came to Yerushalayim.

In light of all this (and other evidences), the “Ten Lost Tribes” may not really be “lost” after all. While we’re at it, it’s most likely that there were no ten distinct ‘Tribes’ at the time of the deportation (again contrary to popular belief) - there is one kingdom, populated by amalgamations of several Tribes. So the amalgamation was happening even before the Samaritans came into the scene.

Modern genetics, meanwhile, has suggested some truth to both the claims of the Samaritans and the Jews. Some now suggest that the Samaritans are products of northern Israelites and Assyrians intermingling with each other - a typical Assyrian policy to obliterate national identities.

Finally, as for the beliefs of the Samaritans:

• There is only one God.
• The Torah was given by God to Moses, who is the ONLY true prophet. Because “since then no prophet has arisen in Israel like Moses” according to Deuteronomy 34:10, they reject all books and prophets save for Moses and the Torah.
• Mount Gerizim is the one, true sanctuary chosen by God (instead of Jerusalem). In the last days the Shekinah will again appear there.
• The priests are the interpreters of the law and the keepers of tradition; scholars are secondary to the priesthood.
• Many Samaritans believe in a resurrection at the end of days, which will be brought about by Taheb, a Messiah-like prophetic figure who will also recover the lost artifacts hidden on Mount Gerizim (say, the vessels, the jar of manna, and the Law) and re-establish true worship. Taheb will live for 110 years and then die, after which the resurrection would then take place and will be accompanied by the final judgment, when the righteous will go into the garden of Eden, and the wicked be burned with fire.
• The tenth commandment is about the sanctity of Mount Gerizim.

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger,

I have been reading this thread, and even though the title of the thread is LXX, I don’t think you really know what the question is. You have talked about the Saducees, and you talked about replying to a friend that believes that Jesus is created, with the implication that you wish to show him/her what the LXX says. But in the next post to BpBasil, you told him that the deity of Jesus has nothing to do with it!

I am confused. What exactly do you want to know? If you can clearly state it in one sentence, then you are on the right track. However, all this ambiguous talk has without a doubt caused some to prejudge you, thinking that you have an agenda. Please state clearly, in one sentence, what you want to know. There are various scholars on this forum that will be able to answer.

I just got home. It’s late and altho I read thru the many new posts here, I am to tired to deal with all…

But I do want to deal with this one.

1st, I said I have many questions concerning the LXX but started with only one.

2nd, I talked about the Sadducees because someone else brought them up.

3rd, I talked about Jesus deity because my motives had been questioned twice and I thought explaining why I was so interested in studying the history of the LXX would put the issue to rest - obviously I was wrong or I would not be having to answer your post too.

4th, I did not say I wanted to show anyone what the LXX says. I believe I said I was interested in learning about it because this other person uses it to deny Jesus.

5th, This thread is not about Jesus deity. It is about the LXX. It really is no ones business why I want to search for solid evidence concerning the LXX. I just thought it might help to stop accusations of ill intent if I explained my curiosity.

6th, Maybe being a little over tired is making me cranky, but to those of you who are confused I wish you would just leave or be still because I am tired of writing posts to explain things. To those of you who are determined to think I must have sinister motives - don’t talk with me…

On second thought, I won’t talk with you. It’s time I realize I will find answers much more quickly if I research on my own.

Have a nice evening.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I just got home. It’s late and altho I read thru the many new posts here, I am to tired to deal with all…

But I do want to deal with this one.

1st, I said I have many questions concerning the LXX but started with only one.

2nd, I talked about the Sadducees because someone else brought them up.

3rd, I talked about Jesus deity because my motives had been questioned twice and I thought explaining why I was so interested in studying the history of the LXX would put the issue to rest - obviously I was wrong or I would not be having to answer your post too.

4th, I did not say I wanted to show anyone what the LXX says. I believe I said I was interested in learning about it because this other person uses it to deny Jesus.

5th, This thread is not about Jesus deity. It is about the LXX. It really is no ones business why I want to search for solid evidence concerning the LXX. I just thought it might help to stop accusations of ill intent if I explained my curiosity.

6th, Maybe being a little over tired is making me cranky, but to those of you who are confused I wish you would just leave or be still because I am tired of writing posts to explain things. To those of you who are determined to think I must have sinister motives - don’t talk with me…

On second thought, I won’t talk with you. It’s time I realize I will find answers much more quickly if I research on my own.

Have a nice evening.

It would seem to me that if your friend were using the LXX to deny Jesus’s deity, you might be interested in what ancient Christian writers might have said about these controversial passages.

But it seems to me from your current reply you have no clear idea about what you really want to know, because you reject out of hand any direct answers to your questions.