Lying - an intrinsic evil with no exceptions?

[FNDRB58]

The last thread on this subject was long but seemed to fizzle out before I got in on it so I would like to reintroduce this subject because I think it is both interesting and important. For those who have more to say…welcome!

Some have said that lying is an intrinsic evil and should never be committed under any circumstances.

In order to say whether a lie is or is not an instrinsic evil, one must first define what a lie in the sinful context is.

A lie in the general sense is to tell an untruth. Now whether a lie is sinful requires more detail in the definition. According to the Catechism, a sinful lie is *an untruth told to someone who has the right to know the truth. In this context the lie would be an instrinsic evil because you are deceiving a person who should not be deceived.

In the classic example of a would-be murderer chasing your daughter or the Gestapo looking for Jews at one’s doorstep, it is clear to me that one should indeed lie to save the lives of the innocent because the lie is said to someone who does not have the right to know and therefore is not sinful.

To those who feel that there are no exceptions to lying as there are to killing another person, I would say that your are wrong.

just killing vs unjust killing ~ just lying vs unjust lying

What say you?*

 

[Jenniferolg]

I agree 100% and in fact used a similar story to explain to my children why they must always do as I say and not contradict me since they are often not privy to the whole story of what is going on in the adult world and just who needs to know what and when. I also explained that sometimes they should be like Mary and “ponder in their hearts” what is happening.

Jennifer

 

[Sum_Fidelis]

I to agree with you,but,it is not that simple,I am lawyer so I know what I am talking about.
A lie is a sin,yes,but a lie that may save someones life is not a sin,yes? A lie is a sin,that we have establish,but lets say your best friend has bought a shirt that makes even a horse to throw up but he likes it,what can you say? Jep,you must say it is a OK shirt,don’t say to much,but agree with him. Lying is not a black and white thing,even priests lie to not hurt others. You can’t always tell the truth because the truth can really hurt. You must play with the cards you have,try to avoid lying,but don’t be surprised when you find out that there are situations where a lie is the only right thing to do,try with this,for one month keep with you a notepad and keep track on how often you lie,then tell me the result on my PM,deal? And by the way,one thing I have seen over all thees years dealing with truth and lies and something in between,if you need to lie,be sure you have a good memory and make sure 80% is true. God bless.

 

[thistle]

The last thread on this subject was long but seemed to fizzle out before I got in on it so I would like to reintroduce this subject because I think it is both interesting and important. For those who have more to say…welcome!

Some have said that lying is an intrinsic evil and should never be committed under any circumstances.

In order to say whether a lie is or is not an instrinsic evil, one must first define what a lie in the sinful context is.

A lie in the general sense is to tell an untruth. Now whether a lie is sinful requires more detail in the definition. According to the Catechism, a sinful lie is *an untruth told to someone who has the right to know the truth. In this context the lie would be an instrinsic evil because you are deceiving a person who should not be deceived.

In the classic example of a would-be murderer chasing your daughter or the Gestapo looking for Jews at one’s doorstep, it is clear to me that one should indeed lie to save the lives of the innocent because the lie is said to someone who does not have the right to know and therefore is not sinful.

To those who feel that there are no exceptions to lying as there are to killing another person, I would say that your are wrong.

just killing vs unjust killing ~ just lying vs unjust lying

What say you?*

No need to start a new thread. The other threads on lying are still running and your points have been been commented on by many posters in these threads.

 

[FNDRB58]

No need to start a new thread. The other threads on lying are still running and your points have been been commented on by many posters in these threads.

We are free to start new threads as we wish. The last one has not been commented on in several days. Thank you for your comments.

 

[FNDRB58]

I to agree with you,but,it is not that simple,I am lawyer so I know what I am talking about.
A lie is a sin,yes,but a lie that may save someones life is not a sin,yes? A lie is a sin,that we have establish,but lets say your best friend has bought a shirt that makes even a horse to throw up but he likes it,what can you say? Jep,you must say it is a OK shirt,don’t say to much,but agree with him. Lying is not a black and white thing,even priests lie to not hurt others. You can’t always tell the truth because the truth can really hurt. You must play with the cards you have,try to avoid lying,but don’t be surprised when you find out that there are situations where a lie is the only right thing to do,try with this,for one month keep with you a notepad and keep track on how often you lie,then tell me the result on my PM,deal? And by the way,one thing I have seen over all thees years dealing with truth and lies and something in between,if you need to lie,be sure you have a good memory and make sure 80% is true. God bless.

Thank you. We are in agreement there are indeed situations where lying is just.

 

[thistle]

Thank you. We are in agreement there are indeed situations where lying is just.

Lying is never acceptable/just.

In your Nazi case a lie is not required. If the Nazis ask if there are Jews in the house either silence or a mental reservation technique can be used when the person asking has no right to know the truth.
The answer could be “There are no Jews in this house” (silently continuing “that I will hand over to you”). The part in brackets is the mental reservation. Father Lukfahr, a well known Catholic Educator, respected by many in these forums, informed me of this. Using mental reservation is not lying.
In my view mental reservation is supported by the CCC:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Lying is never acceptable/just.

In your Nazi case a lie is not required. If the Nazis ask if there are Jews in the house either silence or a mental reservation technique can be used when the person asking has no right to know the truth.
The answer could be “There are no Jews in this house” (silently continuing “that I will hand over to you”). The part in brackets is the mental reservation. Father Lukfahr, a well known Catholic Educator, respected by many in these forums, informed me of this. Using mental reservation is not lying.
In my view mental reservation is supported by the CCC:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it

Mental reservation in my opinion is as much a lie as any lie of omission. The fact is that sometimes, it is necessary to lie.

If a friend was about to walk down the isle in a horrible dress with horrible hair and makeup and turned to me 30 seconds beforehand and asked me how she looked, which is better? For me to say 1.) “Today, you are the most beautiful woman in the world” or 2.) “Today, you are the most beautiful woman in the world” (silently continuing “if this was planet Psychotic Hooker, population, YOU”)

BOTH are lies because you are telling the person ONE thing, while thinking/meaning something totally different. The person goes away with an impression that is NOT the truth, through your intentional deception. How is this not lying?

 

[kbwall]

your best friend has bought a shirt that makes even a horse to throw up but he likes it,what can you say? Jep,you must say it is a OK shirt,don’t say to much,but agree with him.

If the shirt makes him look horrible, it actually seems kinda mean to lie to him. He’s gonna wear that hideous shirt thinking it looks good when everybody around him thinks him a fool.

If the Nazis ask if there are Jews in the house either silence or a mental reservation technique can be used when the person asking has no right to know the truth.

Mental reservation is the exact same thing as a lie! I can justify virtually every lie ever thought of by calling it mental reservation, and adding something to make it technically true.

And silence? Nazis didn’t play games. I imagine if they asked you if Jews were in the house, you better have an answer, or they just shoot you and search the place anyway.

 

[thistle]

Mental reservation in my opinion is as much a lie as any lie of omission. The fact is that sometimes, it is necessary to lie.

If a friend was about to walk down the isle in a horrible dress with horrible hair and makeup and turned to me 30 seconds beforehand and asked me how she looked, which is better? For me to say 1.) “Today, you are the most beautiful woman in the world” or 2.) “Today, you are the most beautiful woman in the world” (silently continuing “if this was planet Psychotic Hooker, population, YOU”)

BOTH are lies because you are telling the person ONE thing, while thinking/meaning something totally different. The person goes away with an impression that is NOT the truth, through your intentional deception. How is this not lying?

Please read carefully about who does not have the right to know. It has nothing to do with frivilous things like somebody’s hairdo, even on their wedding day.
In your example she could still look beautiful despite a hairdo you might not like. You don’t have to mention the hairdo at all. A person’s beauty does not depend on their hair!

It is NEVER necessary to lie!

 

[FNDRB58]

Lying is never acceptable/just.

In your Nazi case a lie is not required. If the Nazis ask if there are Jews in the house either silence or a mental reservation technique can be used when the person asking has no right to know the truth.
The answer could be “There are no Jews in this house” (silently continuing “that I will hand over to you”). The part in brackets is the mental reservation. Father Lukfahr, a well known Catholic Educator, respected by many in these forums, informed me of this. Using mental reservation is not lying.
In my view mental reservation is supported by the CCC:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it

Mental reservation would indeed be used appropriately if someone at a bus stop asked, “Does anyone here have a $100 bill in there pocket?” But mental reservation would not be appropriate when the Gestapo pounds on your door and asks you with guns in their hands, “Are you hiding Jews?” As much as mental reservation would help you in one situation it will get others and yourself murdered in the other situation. In addition, murderers do not have the right to know, which the Catechism also states is required. So the use of mental reservation in this scenario is neither required nor appropriate.

I started this thread with the intention that we dig a little deeper than just stating that a lie is a lie and it is always sinful.

Consider the following points. I would love some rebuttals to these as I don’t believe there is any that could be validly made, but let’s see:

1) If killing a human being can be justified in certain circumstances then why can’t telling an untruth to a human being be justified in certain circumstances? In the general context, is the telling of an untruth more egregious than killing a child of God?

2) When the killing of a human is sinful, it is then that we give it the name murder. If the telling of an untruth is sinful, it is then that we call it a lie.

3) If the killing of a human may be justified for the greater good (self-defense) then why would it not follow that the telling of an untruth may also be justified for the greater good (protecting the Jews)?

 

[MissMarlene]

Lying is never acceptable/just.

In your Nazi case a lie is not required. If the Nazis ask if there are Jews in the house either silence or a mental reservation technique can be used when the person asking has no right to know the truth.
The answer could be “There are no Jews in this house” (silently continuing “that I will hand over to you”). The part in brackets is the mental reservation. Father Lukfahr, a well known Catholic Educator, respected by many in these forums, informed me of this. Using mental reservation is not lying.
In my view mental reservation is supported by the CCC:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it

I agree. Lying is never just or excusable.
The other thread starter wanted us to say that it was okay for him to stand and lie in the Church during his wedding ceremony in order to please his new family. That of course is wrong.
I believe it was CS. Lewis who said we dont always owe someone the truth. He used the scenario where a teacher says to a boy infront of the class:
“So your dad came home drunk last night?”
The teacher there has overstepped any boundary and has no right to the truth. The pupil can choose not to answer.

However, as in cases of life and death lying can be understandable but never called just… its never the perfect response.

 

[FNDRB58]

Sorry, but can you support your assertion?Just saying “lying is never just” doesn’t contribute much. Care to respond to my points in blue in the previous post?

Thanks.

 

[Sum_Fidelis]

Please read carefully about who does not have the right to know. It has nothing to do with frivilous things like somebody’s hairdo, even on their wedding day.
In your example she could still look beautiful despite a hairdo you might not like. You don’t have to mention the hairdo at all. A person’s beauty does not depend on their hair!

It is NEVER necessary to lie!

"It is never necessary to lie? What if your lie saves someones life? (Or your own?) It is absolutely wrong and a sin to lie but to never lie works in a world very much different from ours here on this lonely planet. A lie is always wrong if it does harm or put other people in trouble,and it is always right if it helps someone already in trouble. This world is not black and white,it has many colors,and if we live as we do,we can’t avoid a lie now and then. I do not defend lying in any way but I also know that it can be the best thing to do. This is a example,and I do not point this in any direction,and this has nothing what so ever whit any real thing,to do,and this is not me defending a lie. As a lawyer I serve the system by truth and only the truth. but let us say your child is accused of taking something from the shop and did not pay for it,and the police come and ask if he was home at that time the “robbery” took place,and you,as a parent,says “yes he was home so it could not be him you are looking for”. A lie? Oh yes,and a big one. Of course you punish him for what he did,but your lie made sure that he,for a very stupid thing,don’t get a crime record. You punish him,but the police are not interested in your child anymore. You did the right thing as a parent,as your child hopefully learn a valuable lesson,so you lying was in order,yes? A lie is a sword with two edges,and both are right and wrong. It is always a question of judgment and common sense. We all know that a lie is wrong,but sometime what is wrong can be more then right. In a perfect world this debate would never happen,but this is not a perfect world we live in,far from it. We must,sadly,very often think what is right,the truth or a lie. A lie that saves someone can’t be wrong,but the truth that hurts,even costs lives,is not right. Common sense good folks,common sense.

 

[FNDRB58]

We agree that lies may be just but we do so for different reasons. I would disagree completely with your scenario. It would indeed be a sin to answer the police with an untruth when they have the right to know the truth. The parent is doing more harm to the child than good by teaching the child (how old?) that lying to the authorities (of whom God put in charge) is the best solution to a problem. Speaking in a secular manner, if the child is indeed guilty of theft, then it is in his best interest to pay the piper for his wrongdoing. A child or teenager who gets a record for theft will not have that tough a time in life if he changes his ways. If it is theft you are talking about, that can easily be expunged in an acceptable amount of time. If he changes his ways then it should not hinder him in his adulthood, therefore, now is the time to get him on the right path. You say you are a lawyer and you are thinking like a lawyer to help your client, “get off” at all costs. This behavior is not what makes society one of which God approves and is a testament to what is wrong with our legal system. You pointed out in your post in red that you serve the system in truth and only truth yet you say a father should lie to the police to ease the pressure off his delinquent son, yet the police, the judge, and any jury would say the father lied. Me confused! Then, if the crime goes to trial, you would be advising the father to lie which the crime of purjury, and if it is found out that you advised him to lie then you would be found guilty of purjury yourself or some other charge of unethical behavior. But of course you know all this

 

[FNDRB58]

In a perfect world this debate would never happen,but this is not a perfect world we live in,far from it. We must,sadly,very often think what is right,the truth or a lie. A lie that saves someone can’t be wrong,but the truth that hurts,even costs lives,is not right. Common sense good folks,common sense.

One more thing. This is not a perfect world because people live according to the standards of the world instead of the standards of God. Perhaps if we broke the status quo and actually behaved in an honest, upright manner, as Jesus taught, this world would do an about face from its current state of chaos. Just my two cents. I am a little miffed at the lawyer as you can see…okay, under control now.

 

[GraceDK]

Sorry, but can you support your assertion?Just saying “lying is never just” doesn’t contribute much. Care to respond to my points in blue in the previous post?

Thanks.

I’ll try to answer this one…

We ought to serve a Lord who calls Himself the Truth and we are to become like Him and imitate Him in all things.
Would Jesus ever lie? You know He wouldn’t. When people asked Him things He wouldn’t answer He either didn’t answer or He counter-asked them something.

As a person who lives in a free democracy I can honestly say I have never been forced to lie in any sense of the word. I might have avoided answering questions if I had some shameful secret, but I actually believe God never put us in a situation where we have to lie. Lying is in no way part of my daily life.

I must always think of the heroic and saintly family ten Boom, a strong Calvinist family who precisely hid Jews in Holland during the war. In the testimony about this work - which eventually cost 2 of these family members their lives - there are two accounts of Nazis storming into a house and asking if there are Jews in the house.

One time the niece of the author actually points to where they are hidden, and the Nazis don’t believe it and leave the place without checking. The familiy itself is in conflict about the honesty of the young girl, but the answer is given: “God honours truth-telling with perfect protection”.
In the second instance a Jew is actually taken away by the Nazis. The main character Cornelia comes to the place while a young Jewish woman, Anneliese, completely pale and terrified, is being led away by Nazis. But her sister, who has “betrayed” the woman, is calm. Cornelia is shocked and horrified. But her sister Nollie trusts that God still will honour the honesty which He Himself commands. She says:" No ill will happen to Annaliese. God will not let them take her to Germany. He will not let her suffer because I obeyed Him". Total trust. A few days later the Jewish woman is liberated by freedom fighters along with many others from the building where they were imprisoned.
These are true accounts from “The Hiding Place”

What to think of such conduct? I am not sure I would have the FAITH in God myself to not take matters into my own hands … but I think that true saints dont compromise, and God is really with them.
Christianity is radical, but God has patience with us when we are afraid and can’t trust Him to such great an extent… yet we mustn’t somehow excuse our lack of trust.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Please read carefully about who does not have the right to know. It has nothing to do with frivilous things like somebody’s hairdo, even on their wedding day.
In your example she could still look beautiful despite a hairdo you might not like. You don’t have to mention the hairdo at all. A person’s beauty does not depend on their hair!

It is NEVER necessary to lie!

I said her dress, hair and makeup looked horrendous. Tell me how a person can still look beautiful with all of those things going against her. Even the most beautiful woman in the world at that point would still be a trainwreck.

 

[Sum_Fidelis]

As I did say,that was only a example,and it is nothing more but one. What I am trying :banghead: to explain is that the world in not black or white. (I am born in Ireland and they say we have 40 shades of green.) So I take it one more time from the top.*** Lying is wrong,and a sin*** but there are occasions when it is the only solution. If someone die in a accident,how often will the doctor say,if asked,did the victim die in peace and with no pains,and the doctor will answer most certainly "yes,he or she did not suffer. OK,that is a lie,but not wrong. Why tell the family and friends that the victim died in great pain and that death was a blessing? We all sin,some more,some less,but we do sin,and the most common sin is a lie.:dts:To lie,when it serves a greater purpose then the truth is a sin,but a sin that is important. I deal every day with truth and lies,and after 25 as a lawyer I know when someone is lying,and I also know when it serves a greater purpose to lie then tell the truth. But we must understand that a lie is never the right solution,but there is times when there is no choice but to lie. I am so sorry that I have offended you,among many others I suppose,but the truth is that a lie is sometime the only good thing to do. By the way,when did you last told a lie? God bless and good night.

 

[davidv]

As I did say,that was only a example,and it is nothing more but one. What I am trying :banghead: to explain is that the world in not black or white. (I am born in Ireland and they say we have 40 shades of green.) So I take it one more time from the top.*** Lying is wrong,and a sin*** but there are occasions when it is the only solution. If someone die in a accident,how often will the doctor say,if asked,did the victim die in peace and with no pains,and the doctor will answer most certainly "yes,he or she did not suffer. OK,that is a lie,but not wrong. Why tell the family and friends that the victim died in great pain and that death was a blessing? We all sin,some more,some less,but we do sin,and the most common sin is a lie.:dts:To lie,when it serves a greater purpose then the truth is a sin,but a sin that is important. I deal every day with truth and lies,and after 25 as a lawyer I know when someone is lying,and I also know when it serves a greater purpose to lie then tell the truth. But we must understand that a lie is never the right solution,but there is times when there is no choice but to lie. I am so sorry that I have offended you,among many others I suppose,but the truth is that a lie is sometime the only good thing to do. By the way,when did you last told a lie? God bless and good night.

I don’t believe this is an acceptable solution. One is not permitted to commit a sin to prevent another evil. To me that catechism is clear that 1) all lies are sins and 2) not all untruths/deceptions are lies.