Lying - an intrinsic evil with no exceptions?

[Sum_Fidelis]

Oh yes, pinch her nose and she will open her mouth. Honestly, Lily, I am very very surprised at what you have written here. A grown woman is not a two year-old child. A grown woman in a severe diabetic reaction can break your jaw.

My Mom was also a Type I diabetic, extremely brittle, with highs that went off the chart to lows of about 20 within the space of an hour. She was not just not thinking clearly, she was not thinking clearly in the least. I have absolutely no feelings of guilt about any actions I ever took to save her life (and I did take perfom those actions many, many times).

Once she kicked me repeatedly as I tried to keep her from possibly smashing a breakfront in her living room. Her brain may have been oxygen-deprived, but she was amazingly strong. Now you can say I should call 911. If so I would have to ask you if you have considered the possibility that paramedics would be unable to respond to emergencies where they were really needed, such as cardiac arrest, profuse bleeding, etc. when a person who is present with the diabetic in a severe reaction can take care of the problem on her own (I know you didn’t present this in your post but I think it would suggest itself as a possibility for dealing with this problem).

If Kay Cee chose to feed her mother ice cream (which is an excellent source of glucose) and told her the sugar-laden ice cream was in fact sugarless, I see no problem. Her mother did not have the right to know the truth. Not having the right to know the truth does not only apply to Nazis and other evil people - it applies to those who cannot help themselves as they are dying.

You would have Kay Cee tell her mother the ice cream is medicine? I’ve been in this sort of situation. A diabetic in a severe reaction does not think normally - he/she can’t. My Mom would never have accepted the “medicine” story. She would have had her teeth clamped together and her lips as tightly closed as possible. I don’t think you realize how drastic and quick the thinking and behavior of a diabetic changes. Kay Cee said her mother was acting like a two year-old child. My Mom often did not know who I was. I don’t believe she even knew who she was! She was very, very ill and a reaction is a crisis situation. I saved my Mom’s life many times. I’m not saying that to show how wonderful I am, because I’m not. I am saying it because it is true. Attempting to reason with a diabetic in a severe reaction wastes precious time. What needs to be done needs to be done now. You get the sugar into the diabetic as fast as you can because her blood glucose is probably still dropping. There is no time for reasoning or debate. This is an emergency situation.

You would have Kay Cee hold her mother’s nose shut? Should she drag her mother to the floor, lie down on top of her in order to try to restrain her and hold her nose? How? Seriously, what do you think would happen? I have a good idea. Kay Cee would be badly injured and Kay Cee’s mother would most likely be dead.

I loved (and love) my Mom. If I ever had to tell her something that was not true in order to save her life then that is the price I will gladly pay. I have no guilt feelings over any actions I took to protect her. As a human being she was precious to God and created in His image. She was also precious to me. Saving a person’s life is an act of love.

Please walk a mile in my moccasins before deciding what the correct course of action is. Better yet, try walking a mile in my Mom’s moccasins. She doesn’t wear them anymore because she passed on several years ago. From diabetes.

You can’t win this battle. Some people are rather better Catholics then humans,and that is sad. But don’t worry,Jesus is with you,and all of us,and the Jesus I know do good deeds even if it goes like the Church want. I love the Church,and do my best to be a good catholic,but first I must be a human with a heart to become a good catholic. Bless you,

 

[hazcompat]

Hazcompat

If you are interested in getting in on this debate you will have to contribute more than just telling us to refer to your cut and paste posts. Please use your own words to describe your points in collaboration with your quotes from saints. Thanks.

why? the grat saint speaks more eloquently. what more do I have to add. his words are spot on the discussion.

peace

 

[LittleSoldier]

You can’t win this battle. Some people are rather better Catholics then humans,and that is sad. But don’t worry,Jesus is with you,and all of us,and the Jesus I know do good deeds even if it goes like the Church want. I love the Church,and do my best to be a good catholic,but first I must be a human with a heart to become a good catholic. Bless you,

Thank you and please bless Kay Cee, too. It’s hard to have a loved one with diabetes. I think that even the posters in this thread that think Kay Cee’s actions (if she “lied” about the sugar content of the ice cream) are morally wrong would act in a similar way if they were in the same situation.

When someone you love is fading away in front of your eyes you do what is necessary. There were times when I called 911 immediately after just looking at my Mom. She had this look she got - her eyes were different and I’d feel her head and it would be covered with cold sweat. But it was her eyes that would tip me off. That look meant I couldn’t help her because she was slipping into a coma.

And I’m so proud of the paramedics who knew our address right away because they were at the house so often (I lived with my parents for nine months after I was badly injured and lost my job). But if I could save her I would. And did. And I thank God for letting me know what to do and for the opportunity to pay my Mom back just a bit for some of the wonderful ways she showed me she loved me. Before she died she told me that when she got to heaven she would do anything she could for me. I believed her and still do. I also miss her so much.

 

[FNDRB58]

You can’t win this battle. Some people are rather better Catholics then humans,and that is sad. But don’t worry,Jesus is with you,and all of us,and the Jesus I know do good deeds even if it goes like the Church want. I love the Church,and do my best to be a good catholic,but first I must be a human with a heart to become a good catholic. Bless you,

Enough with the secular rants. You are a child of God first, then human. Humans who are not Christians are pagans and often go to hell. If you are human first then you are like the pagans. God shows us HOW to be human, that is, how to act, and what is a sin and the Magesterium guides and defines by their authority given by that same God. Most of your comments make no sense. You are trying to lead people to think without God on their minds. I would prefer you bowed out of this debate as all your points do not mesh with the Christianity. The rest of us are actually debating the issue within the Catholic ideal whereas you are debating using secularist thinking.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’d like to bring up something my daughter said just now:

When I was discussing the issue we’ve been talking about here, she cut right through to the heart of the matter, I thought.

She said, “Well of course lying is wrong. But in some cases, if there is just no other way, a person will lie if the other choice is something worse, like somebody being killed. The thing is, he is still doing wrong, but he is doing ‘less wrong’ than something else. And he should still be sorry for lying. Because good intentions don’t make something wrong ‘not wrong’. They only explain why the person did what he did, that he thought the wrong thing was better than something which was also wrong but a worse wrong.”

She understood that it could be argued that lying was the lesser of two evils, but that it was still evil.

If we could agree on that statement alone I think we’d all be closer to a consensus.

But I feel that from some posters we are getting not just an impression but actual statements that in a case like the Jews and Nazis, a lie IS NOT A LIE AT ALL.

And that is wrong. Good intentions don’t make a wrong thing (a lie) into a ‘good thing.’ It just can’t be done! A lie is a lie is a lie (pace, Gertrude Stein).

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’d like to bring up something my daughter said just now:

When I was discussing the issue we’ve been talking about here, she cut right through to the heart of the matter, I thought.

She said, “Well of course lying is wrong. But in some cases, if there is just no other way, a person will lie if the other choice is something worse, like somebody being killed. The thing is, he is still doing wrong, but he is doing ‘less wrong’ than something else. And he should still be sorry for lying. Because good intentions don’t make something wrong ‘not wrong’. They only explain why the person did what he did, that he thought the wrong thing was better than something which was also wrong but a worse wrong.”

She understood that it could be argued that lying was the lesser of two evils, but that it was still evil.

If we could agree on that statement alone I think we’d all be closer to a consensus.

But I feel that from some posters we are getting not just an impression but actual statements that in a case like the Jews and Nazis, a lie IS NOT A LIE AT ALL.

And that is wrong. Good intentions don’t make a wrong thing (a lie) into a ‘good thing.’ It just can’t be done! A lie is a lie is a lie (pace, Gertrude Stein).

Sorry, but I cannot agree.

For, if that were the case, God allowed me to be put in a situation in which I had no choice but to commit evil.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sorry, but I cannot agree.

For, if that were the case, God allowed me to be put in a situation in which I had no choice but to commit evil.

God does not will evil, but He can permit it. Yes, even a situation in which there is no choice but two evils, a greater and a lesser.

What remains for you is to accept that for a good and sufficient reason, using the best of your ability, you chose a ‘lesser’ evil, which you regret but felt was less ‘wrong’ than the greater evil. . .and to ‘go on’ from there.

God never promised that we would always be put into situations where we would be able to choose ‘good’ over evil. He did promise that if we sinned and turned to Him, we would be forgiven.

 

[Kay_Cee]

God does not will evil, but He can permit it. Yes, even a situation in which there is no choice but two evils, a greater and a lesser.

What remains for you is to accept that for a good and sufficient reason, using the best of your ability, you chose a ‘lesser’ evil, which you regret but felt was less ‘wrong’ than the greater evil. . .and to ‘go on’ from there.

God never promised that we would always be put into situations where we would be able to choose ‘good’ over evil. He did promise that if we sinned and turned to Him, we would be forgiven.

Really? God creates situations in which we are forced to sin?

What kind of loving God would force us to commit evil?

I think you’re looking solely at the letter of the law and not its spirit. Who here would not hesitate to swipe the car keys of a drunken friend? Are you going to argue with me that such a thing is stealing rather than the responsible thing to do?

Goodness, if I had an animal stuck at the bottom of a well on the Sabbath, should I just let it die rather than break the Sabbath? I think Jesus had something to say about that.

 

[LittleSoldier]

God does not will evil, but He can permit it. Yes, even a situation in which there is no choice but two evils, a greater and a lesser.

What remains for you is to accept that for a good and sufficient reason, using the best of your ability, you chose a ‘lesser’ evil, which you regret but felt was less ‘wrong’ than the greater evil. . .and to ‘go on’ from there.

God never promised that we would always be put into situations where we would be able to choose ‘good’ over evil. He did promise that if we sinned and turned to Him, we would be forgiven.

No. God loves us. He would never put anyone in a situation where he/she would be forced to commit evil. What if I “lied” to my Mom to save her life and then dropped dead of a heart attack before I even had the thought of going to Confession? Would God then tell me I had to burn in Purgatory for a longer time because I’d “lied?”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Enough with the secular rants. You are a child of God first, then human. Humans who are not Christians are pagans and often go to hell. If you are human first then you are like the pagans. God shows us HOW to be human, that is, how to act, and what is a sin and the Magesterium guides and defines by their authority given by that same God. Most of your comments make no sense. You are trying to lead people to think without God on their minds. I would prefer you bowed out of this debate as all your points do not mesh with the Christianity. The rest of us are actually debating the issue within the Catholic ideal whereas you are debating using secularist thinking.

You might prefer that somebody who disagrees with you bow out of this debate, but that is not your call. You’re not the moderator. If you have a problem with a member’s posts a moderator should be informed.

The poster you are referring to has as much right to post in this thread as you do.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No. God loves us. He would never put anyone in a situation where he/she would be forced to commit evil. What if I “lied” to my Mom to save her life and then dropped dead of a heart attack before I even had the thought of going to Confession? Would God then tell me I had to burn in Purgatory for a longer time because I’d “lied?”

God loves us but we live in a world which is broken. Sometimes there is nothing but evil.

And if you repented your lie as you ‘dropped dead’ God knows what is in your heart.

Actions have consequences.

Do you really think that good intentions should nullify a wrong action?

Do you think you deserve to spend ‘less time’ in Purgatory because you were lying for a ‘good intention?’

Does God have to accommodate His teaching to human ideas, or do we have to accomodate our ideas to His teachings?

You just cannot attempt to make a wrong somehow ‘not wrong’. You can (if there is no other choice, and the Catechism notes this under the principle of 'lesser evil) use your judgment and conscience and choose the lesser evil, provided you are sorry for having to choose an evil at all.

God helps us in that if we do sin, even if we feel we were ‘forced’ into making a choice that is wrong (but a lesser wrong than the other choice), we can still turn to Him and be saved.

But He doesn’t help us by saying, “Oh you poor dear. You had to lie to save a life? Well even though it was a lie, presto-chango, I’ll make it into a ‘not sin’ for you, because the reason you did it cancels out the sin!” God does not change. Sin does not become ‘not-sin’.

I’m sure God understands the sorrow and the regret and the incredible struggle that people make in such harsh circumstances and that He will be His loving and forgiving self. But His understanding is one thing. . .He just doesn’t ‘change the rules’ because of situations. That wouldn’t be understanding, that would be unfair and unjust, and God is neither.

 

[LittleSoldier]

God loves us but we live in a world which is broken. Sometimes there is nothing but evil.

And if you repented your lie as you ‘dropped dead’ God knows what is in your heart.

Actions have consequences.

Do you really think that good intentions should nullify a wrong action?

Do you think you deserve to spend ‘less time’ in Purgatory because you were lying for a ‘good intention?’

Does God have to accommodate His teaching to human ideas, or do we have to accomodate our ideas to His teachings?

You just cannot attempt to make a wrong somehow ‘not wrong’. You can (if there is no other choice, and the Catechism notes this under the principle of 'lesser evil) use your judgment and conscience and choose the lesser evil, provided you are sorry for having to choose an evil at all.

God helps us in that if we do sin, even if we feel we were ‘forced’ into making a choice that is wrong (but a lesser wrong than the other choice), we can still turn to Him and be saved.

But He doesn’t help us by saying, “Oh you poor dear. You had to lie to save a life? Well even though it was a lie, presto-chango, I’ll make it into a ‘not sin’ for you, because the reason you did it cancels out the sin!” God does not change. Sin does not become ‘not-sin’.

I’m sure God understands the sorrow and the regret and the incredible struggle that people make in such harsh circumstances and that He will be His loving and forgiving self. But His understanding is one thing. . .He just doesn’t ‘change the rules’ because of situations. That wouldn’t be understanding, that would be unfair and unjust, and God is neither.

Tantum Ergo, it is not a sin!! Kay Cee asked her spiritual director, during Confession, if it was a sin and he said “No.” Should I believe her priest or you?

Do you think I should have just let my Mom die? Because that’s what it sounds like you are saying and I don’t think it is. It can’t be.

Also, I very much doubt that God uses condescending language when speaking to us. He loves us. He loves me.

 

[Kay_Cee]

God loves us but we live in a world which is broken. Sometimes there is nothing but evil.

And if you repented your lie as you ‘dropped dead’ God knows what is in your heart.

Actions have consequences.

Do you really think that good intentions should nullify a wrong action?

Do you think you deserve to spend ‘less time’ in Purgatory because you were lying for a ‘good intention?’

Does God have to accommodate His teaching to human ideas, or do we have to accomodate our ideas to His teachings?

You just cannot attempt to make a wrong somehow ‘not wrong’. You can (if there is no other choice, and the Catechism notes this under the principle of 'lesser evil) use your judgment and conscience and choose the lesser evil, provided you are sorry for having to choose an evil at all.

God helps us in that if we do sin, even if we feel we were ‘forced’ into making a choice that is wrong (but a lesser wrong than the other choice), we can still turn to Him and be saved.

But He doesn’t help us by saying, “Oh you poor dear. You had to lie to save a life? Well even though it was a lie, presto-chango, I’ll make it into a ‘not sin’ for you, because the reason you did it cancels out the sin!” God does not change. Sin does not become ‘not-sin’.

I’m sure God understands the sorrow and the regret and the incredible struggle that people make in such harsh circumstances and that He will be His loving and forgiving self. But His understanding is one thing. . .He just doesn’t ‘change the rules’ because of situations. That wouldn’t be understanding, that would be unfair and unjust, and God is neither.

Tantum ergo, the circumstances are part of the rules. It’s right there in the catechism: “The object, the intention, *and the circumstances *make up the three ‘sources’ of the morality of human acts.” (1757)

I don’t think you’ve followed your reasoning to its logical conclusion. If God allows us to be in situations in which we are forced to commit evil, then that would mean God occasionally promotes evil. One who promotes evil is evil. So, by your reasoning, God would have to be evil.

Maybe you want to give this whole business a lot more thought. Maybe it would help if you consulted your own priest about it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo, the circumstances are part of the rules. It’s right there in the catechism: “The object, the intention, *and the circumstances *make up the three ‘sources’ of the morality of human acts.” (1757)

I don’t think you’ve followed your reasoning to its logical conclusion. If God allows us to be in situations in which we are forced to commit evil, then that would mean God occasionally promotes evil. One who promotes evil is evil. So, by your reasoning, God would have to be evil.

Maybe you want to give this whole business a lot more thought. Maybe it would help if you consulted your own priest about it.

I have.
I think your premise “if God allows us to be in situations where we are forced to commit evil, that would mean God promotes evil” is false.

My reasoning is that God never made evil, but that He sometimes permits evil to occur. This is supported by the catechism.

The fact that we human beings living in an imperfect world might find ourselves in a situation in which only two possibilities are available, both evil, one greater and one lesser, is not an impossibility and is in fact addressed in Church teaching. That fact itself disproves your (not mine but YOUR) reasoning that God could not possibly ‘allow’ us to be a situation where there are only evil choices to make and therefore one ‘must’ choose an evil.

There is no teaching in the Church that says that God will always provide for us in any and all situations the ability to choose something good, not evil.

What does your priest think about this?

 

[Kay_Cee]

I have.
I think your premise “if God allows us to be in situations where we are forced to commit evil, that would mean God promotes evil” is false.

My reasoning is that God never made evil, but that **He sometimes permits evil to occur. **This is supported by the catechism.

The fact that we human beings living in an imperfect world might find ourselves in a situation in which only two possibilities are available, both evil, one greater and one lesser, is not an impossibility and is in fact addressed in Church teaching. That fact itself disproves your (not mine but YOUR) reasoning that God could not possibly ‘allow’ us to be a situation where there are only evil choices to make and therefore one ‘must’ choose an evil.

There is no teaching in the Church that says that God will always provide for us in any and all situations the ability to choose something good, not evil.

What does your priest think about this?

I’m not talking about God permitting evil to occur. I’m talking about God allowing situations in which one is ***forced ***to do evil, where one has no choice but to sin. If God forces us by the circumstances to do evil, then I have no choice but to believe God is evil.

You have said nothing whatsoever about my example regarding swiping a drunken friend’s car keys. Allowing your friend to drive drunk would be more than irresponsible if you have the opportunity to prevent it. It would be a grave sin! But do you want to argue that swiping the keys is stealing? After all, it is taking another person’s property. Should the police never take a gun away from a man who has it aimed at a child? Would that be stealing too?

You have also said nothing about the example Jesus Himself used, that of breaking the Sabbath to save an animal stuck at the bottom of a well. There are times we must follow the spirit of the law, not the letter.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m not talking about God permitting evil to occur. I’m talking about God allowing situations in which one is ***forced ***to do evil. If God forces us by the circumstances to do evil, where one has no choice but to sin, then I have no choice but to believe God is evil.

You have said nothing whatsoever about my example regarding swiping a drunken friend’s car keys. Allowing your friend to drive drunk would be more than irresponsilbe if you have the opportunity to prevent it. It would be a grave sin! But do you want to argue that swiping the keys is stealing? After all, it is taking another person’s property. Should the police never take a gun away from a man who has it aimed at a child? Would that be stealing too?

You have also said nothing about the example Jesus Himself used, that of breaking the Sabbath to save an animal stuck at the bottom of a well. There are times we must follow the spirit of the law, not the letter.

 

[Sum_Fidelis]

Enough with the secular rants. You are a child of God first, then human. Humans who are not Christians are pagans and often go to hell. If you are human first then you are like the pagans. God shows us HOW to be human, that is, how to act, and what is a sin and the Magesterium guides and defines by their authority given by that same God. Most of your comments make no sense. You are trying to lead people to think without God on their minds. I would prefer you bowed out of this debate as all your points do not mesh with the Christianity. The rest of us are actually debating the issue within the Catholic ideal whereas you are debating using secularist thinking.

In a perfect world you would probably have a Chan’s to be right,but this is not a perfect world,and that is our fault. We have made it to be what it is. I am amused by the fact that you call me a pagan,that has never happen before,in fact,no one has ever told me what you are doing. And what does not make sense is that you are now punching holes in your own thread. I don’t know you,and you don’t know me,but God knows us both. You started this thread trying to explain and justify that it is sometimes right to lie. Now you accuse me of being against the Church,a pagan,a secular person,and I guess I a few more things you don’t want to right down. Now my son,listen to me,and listen careful. **There is nothing wrong in doing something right. A lie is a sin,but a greater sin is to not do what is right. God judges us by our deeds,not how good catholics we are. It is not yours nor mine place to say who is a better catholic. This is not a competition of who knows better. This is forum with rules,and your last comment broke just about all of them,but,and this is directed to the moderators,let this lad,or lass,go one,he do have a chance to learn something from us older catholics. If I tell my children that what they have drawn,or write,is good and nice,even if it is the worst thing I ever has seen,I do right because I don’t hurt their feelings. If that makes me a bad catholic and a even worser human,let it be so then,because I am that only in your eyes. And never,never,ever,write or say to anyone what you wrote to me. I forgive you son,because I am a Christian and a catholic. Go back and read your Bible,you may learn something from it. And if you want to be a good Christian you need to control your temper. **I hope you understand,and maybe some day learn that others maybe right sometime. Don’t start a debate if the only way you know to end it,is by being rude. God bless you.

 

[Sum_Fidelis]

Enough with the secular rants. You are a child of God first, then human. Humans who are not Christians are pagans and often go to hell. If you are human first then you are like the pagans. God shows us HOW to be human, that is, how to act, and what is a sin and the Magisterial guides and defines by their authority given by that same God. Most of your comments make no sense. You are trying to lead people to think without God on their minds. I would prefer you bowed out of this debate as all your points do not mesh with the Christianity. The rest of us are actually debating the issue within the Catholic ideal whereas you are debating using secularist thinking.

Listen to me lad,or lass. Don’t ever call anyone a pagan. God judges us by our deeds,not by how good we follow the Bible. If you start a thread,you must know how to stop it. All I have done is to try to make you see that sometimes a lie is better then the truth. That does not make me a pagan,or anything else you accuse me of being. Here are rules,and you need to learn to follow them. I will consider what action I will take by sleeping over this night,I am not going to suggest that you will be banned for good,but you need to clean up your act a bit and learn from us older catholics. Maybe,just maybe,I will do nothing,but it is up to you. You can start by say that you are sorry. God bless you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

God loves us but we live in a world which is broken. Sometimes there is nothing but evil.

Please bear with me. I would like to respond further to this part of your post. I apologize for not including it in the response I have already posted.

“Sometimes there is nothing but evil.” This statement saddens me. It’s not true. To say that sometimes there is nothing but evil is to deny the presence of God, who is Love, in our lives. He is always with us. He never turns His back on us. He is there at Mass, He is there in my home, and He is there in my soul, heart, thoughts, and being. He never abandoned us. Jesus suffered through agony so strong that His sweat was bloody. He was mocked, tortured, forced to carry His cross while He was in agonizing pain and bleeding, and He allowed Himself to be nailed to that cross and to be put to death. He has always been with us and will always be with us. There is never “nothing but evil.”

And if you repented your lie as you ‘dropped dead’ God knows what is in your heart.

God knows what is in my heart at all times, not just when I am dying. He created me and is aware of everything I have done, am doing, and will do in my life. He is omniscient. He knew about me far, far before I was a glint in my father’s eye. He knows I love my Mom. He knows that I understand that protecting human life is far more important than relying on a system of black-and-white “laws” with no exceptions. As another poster has stated, even Jesus had something to say about working on the Sabbath.

I have never “repented” nor atoned for any actions I have taken to safeguard my Mom’s life and health. I did not commit a sin by helping her, nor would I commit a sin by “lying” about the sugar content of ice cream as a means of getting that much-needed glucose into her system. Every second I would wait while pondering what my actions should be is another second of lack of oxygen causing brain damage and a possible further exacerbation of her condition, perhaps leading to her death.

I am not sorry for anything I have done in this respect. I make it a practice to not lie as I used to lie frequently and learned that it becomes much easier the more it is done. But I will not let what you term a “lie” to stand between the condition of my soul and the life of my Mom. I have never confessed any “sins” I committed while saving the life of a precious human being. And I never will - because they are not sins.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

God does not will evil, but He can permit it. Yes, even a situation in which there is no choice but two evils, a greater and a lesser.

What remains for you is to accept that for a good and sufficient reason, using the best of your ability, you chose a ‘lesser’ evil, which you regret but felt was less ‘wrong’ than the greater evil. . .and to ‘go on’ from there…

Let’s make sure we understand what you mean by “regret” here. If you mean that one should feel sorrow that such an action had to be taken, then fine. It applies very well. But if you mean “regret” in the sense that one should see that action as a mistake that one would rather take back and do differently, then I do not agree that it applies very well here. If LittleSoldier is supposed to feel that kind of regret, then I think your advice is incorrect. Of course she is sorrowful over the situation that made it necessary for her to tell falsehoods to her mother. But it would be a mockery of sacrament of reconciliation to suggest that she should confess that action as a sin. Any such confession would have to be accompanied by a firm intention to do differently if the same situation came up again. And that intention is one she is clearly not prepared to make, nor would I in the same situation.

God never promised that we would always be put into situations where we would be able to choose ‘good’ over evil. He did promise that if we sinned and turned to Him, we would be forgiven.

This is confusing too. Are you saying that God might put us in a situation that no matter what we choose to do, the result would be a sin that we ought to confess? I hope you are not saying that because that is just crazy. But if you are just saying that a lesser evil might have to be tolerated, then I can agree with that.

God loves us but we live in a world which is broken. Sometimes there is nothing but evil… Actions have consequences…Do you really think that good intentions should nullify a wrong action?

What are you saying here? First you imply that we might be put into a situation where there is nothing but “evil choices”. Then you turn around and use the word “wrong” in a context that clearly implies there is both a wrong and a right choice. This is inconsistent. If we were to follow that logic, then we would have to allow the possibility that a situation has only evil choices, and furthermore that God is going to punish us for taking one of those evil choice. Just what sort of “consequences” were you referring to? How is it that God is going to punish me no matter which choice I make?

…Do you think you deserve to spend ‘less time’ in Purgatory because you were lying for a ‘good intention?’

The real question is do you think she deserves to spend any time at all in Purgatory for making one choice when you admit that maybe all choices were evil?

You just cannot attempt to make a wrong somehow ‘not wrong’. You can (if there is no other choice, and the Catechism notes this under the principle of 'lesser evil) use your judgment and conscience and choose the lesser evil, provided you are sorry for having to choose an evil at all.

Again, there is a strange meaning of the word “wrong”. LittleSoldier (and most other people) are interpreting the word “wrong” to mean the incorrect choice. The implication being that there is a “better” or “right” choice too. But you are using the word “wrong” in a context where it is actually the best choice. So do you really want to say that the best choice is “wrong”? And, as I said earlier, of course there is sorrow for having to make that choice at all. But that sorrow does not extend to an admission that the choice was the incorrect one. So to avoid misunderstandings, don’t use the word “wrong” in such a strange way, because all it will do is foster misunderstanding of what you really mean.

God helps us in that if we do sin, even if we feel we were ‘forced’ into making a choice that is wrong (but a lesser wrong than the other choice), we can still turn to Him and be saved.

Again, you are positing that God puts us in situations where we have no choice but to sin. You won’t find anything in Catholic teaching that says that. Of course we must turn to Him and be saved. But not because of impossible choices.

But He doesn’t help us by saying, “Oh you poor dear. You had to lie to save a life? Well even though it was a lie, presto-chango, I’ll make it into a ‘not sin’ for you, because the reason you did it cancels out the sin!” God does not change. Sin does not become ‘not-sin’.

No one is arguing that saving a life changes a sin into not-a-sin. What they are arguing is that it was not a sin in the first place. Your humor is in poor taste, and does nothing to advance your argument.