Lying (Hypothetical Holocaust Situation)

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I have to back to review…

But in the first place, to ask a child in class to ask a hypothetical question, to determine the child’s internal propensity to truthfulness, and likewise the parents, is inappropriate and not related to proper parenting.

I tell my children to say I am not available, but more so, to never open the doors to strangers.
 
There is also the issue of giving “the truth” when one is really being asked an opinion. One may give a different answer to the question “Does this dress make me look fat?” versus “Do you think this dress makes me look fat?”
 
King Solomon, who prayed for wisdom, is shown in Scripture excercising that wisdom. Two women came to him, each claiming to be the mother of the same baby. King Solomon led the women to believe that he was going to cut the baby in half, and resolve the issue that way. Obviously he wasn’t going to do such a thing, but he deceived the women into believing that was his intention, so that he could arrive at the truth.

Scripture doesn’t say this was an evil lie. It calls it wisdom.

Deceiving the Nazis to protect innocence is no more a lie than a soldier wearing camoflague to hide from the enemy. We are not discussing a lie that is used to arrive at personal and illicit gain, we are discussing the use of deceit to protect what is good and true and innocent. Deceit used in this way is a tactic, not a lie.

I know some won’t agree with me, but Scripture calls it Wisdom, and I think Scripture is right. There are many examples throughout Scripture that can be cited.
 
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
Hi EasterJoy,

Quick correction: you are quoting an outdated version of the Catechism. Here is the correct quote (note that the “right to know” is removed):
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
Unfortunately, few people are aware of this change, so there is still a lot of confusion.

Please refer to this post by me for more details and sources.
 
Hi EasterJoy,

Quick correction: you are quoting an outdated version of the Catechism. Here is the correct quote (note that the “right to know” is removed):

Unfortunately, few people are aware of this change, so there is still a lot of confusion.

Please refer to this post by me for more details and sources.
This is part of the problem with the Catechism of the Catholic Church…there are two editions…and most people don’t know that. 😃

Another part of the problem is the fact that in one place a lie is called an intrinsic evil…and people still try to excuse the action by intent and circumstance…which the Catechism itself says is not allowable in another section (to my recollection, it’s the section on determining the morality of one’s actions).

– Nicole
 
This is part of the problem with the Catechism of the Catholic Church…there are two editions…and most people don’t know that. 😃

Another part of the problem is the fact that in one place a lie is called an intrinsic evil…and people still try to excuse the action by intent and circumstance…which the Catechism itself says is not allowable in another section (to my recollection, it’s the section on determining the morality of one’s actions).

– Nicole
Yes that is exactly right. You hit it dead on the nose!

Lying is a tricky subject. The important thing to keep in mind is that there is almost never a case where the only option is to lie. Often times, you can achieve the same result simply by withholding the truth. In any case, it is an interesting discussion.
 
There have been alot of power politics in parishes that were the result of misapplication and abuse of Vatican II. The parish power politics, if not unorthodox, were the remaining problems in the Church, after abuses of Vatican II were corrected.

I am referring back to an actual event that happened in a very traditional parish in a time where in the '80’s and '90’s the Church was experiencing alot of confusion and labelling among Catholics as conservative or liberal, orthodox vs unorthodox/heretical, you were part of the American Church and subsequently, you were not perceived as Roman Catholic.

The altars were looking more like focusing on self than on Christ, statues and crosses removed, even the Blessed Sacrament loosing its proper place and focus. What was sin then, was not sin today. And so on. There was alot of polarization among Catholics, and it may also contribute to today where Catholics don’t come across as that community oriented.

Things have settled down alot, but now you have parishes with distinct charisms and activities that reflect on the specific community. So today in contrast to the past, you see alot of parish hopping. This some times can take away from our universal spirit as Roman Catholics. There has been alot of work now in restoring a sense of community and unity among us, and time healing alot of wounds.

So in this context, an actual event happened in a very traditional parish, this during the 1980’s and '90’s, when polarization was at its peak. Some of the pillars of the parish–who were also top, scholarly catechists-- used ‘the stranger at the door scenario/lying’ as a litmus to identify incoming parishioners as potentially threatening to their traditional church.

To use a scenario to identify and label possible unorthodox incoming Catholic families by using 5th graders is a false movement of being Church. This problem finally was coming out into the open when a former pastor returned. It was finally corrected. Here the lying scenario was used to discriminate and marginalized new members to the parish. That was very, very wrong and a form of abuse.

The true scenario is that a vigilant mother–depending on the circumstances – would never allow her children to open the door to strangers in the first place. If the mother is busy, she tells the children to let someone know she is not available at the moment.

About using camouflage during combat…or in the case of Padre Pro in Mexico…war is sin, and in Mexico the priests were being hounded and murdered. Deflection is not a form of lying.

I think when we are stating an event, we must be faithful to be objective in describing the event. If we are confronted to give the truth, we must.
 
I believe there are two questions to answer
  1. in Catholic theology are there any exceptions that allows a person to lie? - in Judaism there is the exception of the sanctity of life (Pikuach Nefesh) and the exception of shalom bayit or domestic peace (such as when your wife asks “do I look fat?”) -
  2. in Catholic theology is it the responsibility of the person to worry about the effect of their lie as to personal sin only or must they also consider the ramifications of not telling a lie on others?- in Judaism your responsibility is to your fellow man and the sin would be in not lying and in revealing the hiding place.
Having read through the responses would it be fair to state that there is a certain disagreement among Catholics as to these two points?
 
Hi EasterJoy,

Quick correction: you are quoting an outdated version of the Catechism. Here is the correct quote (note that the “right to know” is removed):

Unfortunately, few people are aware of this change, so there is still a lot of confusion.

Please refer to this post by me for more details and sources.
That comes as a huge surprise, since I got the citation from the Vatican web site. They still have the 1993 version posted (!!)
 
That comes as a huge surprise, since I got the citation from the Vatican web site. They still have the 1993 version posted (!!)
That the Vatican has not been so quick to switch out the old version points to the fact that the differences are really minor between the two editions. (You can find a list of all the changes here.)

Where a change was made cannot necessarily be construed as an admission that the 1st edition is “wrong”. After all, it was about the 1st edition that John Paul II said it was a “sure norm for teaching the faith.”

In regards to CCC 2483, the removal of the “who has the right to know the truth” qualifier could simply be an indication that the Church is not ready to assert such a theological opinion as doctrine.
 
I believe there are two questions to answer
  1. in Catholic theology are there any exceptions that allows a person to lie? - in Judaism there is the exception of the sanctity of life (Pikuach Nefesh) and the exception of shalom bayit or domestic peace (such as when your wife asks “do I look fat?”)
Lying is an intrinsic evil, and a direct offense against the truth. It is never “allowable” since intrinsic evil means that the action is evil in and of itself, not evil by the intent you carry nor by the circumstances your are in. It cannot be made good/meritorious by intent and circumstance, since lying is not a neutral action, but an evil one.

However, one can employ a method of mental reservation which is meant to conceal, but not offend against, the truth. Mental reservation includes:

Figurative language: hyperbole, litotes, simile, metaphor, etc.

Side-stepping: a question or comment is either not directly addressed, or a comment is given on a completely different subject. In this case the person chooses either to hear and understand your words as you said them or to jump to a false conclusion and deceive himself. Example: Q:“Do I look fat in this?” A: “That outfit really flatters your figure.”, “That color really complements your eyes.”, “I really love you so much.”

Conventional salutation: by convention we understand that these salutations or greetings do not have any absolute meaning beyond etiquette. Their purpose is to convey pleasant feelings and not a sense beyond that. Example: Q:“How are you today?” A:“Fine, thanks.”

Conventional replacements: by convention we understand that busy people do not have time, nor does everyone have the authority, to give an accounting to the last detail about another person. So we have conventional replacement statements. A person hearing such a conventional replacement can either hear and understand the words as given, or jump to a false conclusion and deceive himself. Example Q:“May I speak to your boss?” Your boss is in a meeting in his office and cannot be called away at the moment. A:“He is not here right now, may I take a message?” Q: “I would like to speak to your mother, is she home?” Your mother is home, but she is in the shower and does not wish to be bothered with a phone call or visitor at the door, nor does she wish them to know she is in the shower. A: “She is not here right now.”
  1. in Catholic theology is it the responsibility of the person to worry about the effect of their lie as to personal sin only or must they also consider the ramifications of not telling a lie on others?- in Judaism your responsibility is to your fellow man and the sin would be in not lying and in revealing the hiding place.
To participate in the divine life, we must consider the well-being of those around us. We cannot offend against them for our apparent sake, just as we cannot offend against God for our or their apparent sake. We must be careful not to sin personally, also, but we also must be careful not to lead others into sin or temporal misfortune. However, it is a direct offense against God, who is the Truth, ever to lie, and therefore never permissible.
Having read through the responses would it be fair to state that there is a certain disagreement among Catholics as to these two points?
No, there is no certain disagreement among Catholics on these issues, so it would not be fair to say so. One could say that there is confusion amongst people in general in regard to lying in general, but that is mostly due to the fact that people refuse to define the terms they use to speak and think and/or refuse to search the morality to which God will hold them accountable.

– Nicole
 
I believe there are two questions to answer
  1. in Catholic theology are there any exceptions that allows a person to lie? - in Judaism there is the exception of the sanctity of life (Pikuach Nefesh) and the exception of shalom bayit or domestic peace (such as when your wife asks “do I look fat?”) -
  2. in Catholic theology is it the responsibility of the person to worry about the effect of their lie as to personal sin only or must they also consider the ramifications of not telling a lie on others?- in Judaism your responsibility is to your fellow man and the sin would be in not lying and in revealing the hiding place.
Having read through the responses would it be fair to state that there is a certain disagreement among Catholics as to these two points?
There are a more than a couple of problems built into the question topic of the thread. While I don’t think its intent is, necessarily, to derail Catholic doctrine, I have my doubts as to the veracity of anyone’s claim about what they would do in the proposed scenario. In my mind, part of Jesus’ message was a simplification of the law, so that an ordinary, sane and fit young man could practice Judaism without having to become a scholar of the law just to voice an opinion. Jesus’ did this, so Catholics are taught, with what I have heard called ‘the law of love’. The commands ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ and ‘love thy neighbor as thy self’ must always apply under all circumstances. These represent the simplification we were given, for, as we are reminded by the writing of saints past and future, ‘love covers over a multitude of sin’ and ‘is a wholly safe emotion.’ Since this thread is exhausted in its elicitation of opinion on the politics and morality of the scenario, let me ask: Why would a person, in this case a Jewish person, put the life of a friend in jeopardy by asking that friend to hide him, knowing full well that discovery would mean death or possible death for all involved?

One can use the twofold command of Jesus to possibly derive an answer to the apparent moral conundrum of this thread. Jesus was clear on who one’s neighbor is Lk 10:29-37, the parable of the Good Samaritan. And one should ask, would I ask my friend to hide me in the case of national turmoil?

For me the answer is: either die with this ‘friend’ and tell the truth, or lie and face the consequence of punishment.

Catholics are not divided on this issue. It is the politics of the question that is creating essentially confused and compromised speech.
 
Why would a person, in this case a Jewish person, put the life of a friend in jeopardy by asking that friend to hide him, knowing full well that discovery would mean death or possible death for all involved?
If you had your young daughter or your mother with you, what would you not do to save her life? Would you not ask the Church to protect you and your loved one?

Again, this is NOT an academic question. Read “The Assisi Underground: The Priests Who Rescued Jews” by Alexander Ramati, about the underground railroad of priests, nuns, monks, and lay people who concealed and spirited Jews out of Italy, protecting them against Gestapo intelligence and Italian fascisti, at the cost of their own lives.
 
Let me set up the following well-known hypothetical scenario: I am a German hiding Jews in his basement during the Holocaust. The Nazis knock on my door and ask me if I am hiding any Jews. Personally I would lie and say “No,” knowing full well that it is a venial sin. Then I would confess the venial sin later (or have it forgiven at Communion). Otherwise if I try to do what the Church says to do and tell the truth in a roundabout way so as to deflect the Nazis from their goal, they may interrogate me further and get the real truth out of me.

Does this make me a cafeteria Catholic?

…Also I don’t understand the difference between a “white lie” and telling the truth in what seems to me to be such a deceptive way. It seems to be the same thing to me. Can somebody help me understand the difference?
I’d say “Get out of my house, you have no business here!”
 
If you had your young daughter or your mother with you, what would you not do to save her life? Would you not ask the Church to protect you and your loved one?

Again, this is NOT an academic question. Read “The Assisi Underground: The Priests Who Rescued Jews” by Alexander Ramati, about the underground railroad of priests, nuns, monks, and lay people who concealed and spirited Jews out of Italy, protecting them against Gestapo intelligence and Italian fascisti, at the cost of their own lives.
The book you offer is an excellent one. Aside from the fact that Jewish people and Italians have a closer historical affinity than Germans and Jews (making the Assisi Underground possible on a scale not feasible in the Nazi Germany of WWII), and, that the thread question asked about what a German would do in this situation—you are no doubt correct in offering your scenario of daughter, mother, etc.

But still, there remains the problem of who is responsible for whose life. That is why this question is so relevant today with all the middle east problems and Anti Semitic views so prevalent in that region and elsewhere. The question of the thread cannot be answered without political considerations. I am first and foremost the custodian of me and *my daughter, my wife, and my mother *etc. Risking my life for a persecuted person is one thing, but risking my whole family (young children and all) for a possible stranger is unacceptable and not in conformity with any image of fatherhood I have ever heard of. The Holy Innocents slaughtered by Herod are the first Christian Martyrs—they died for our Lord Jesus. I think it is a mistake to equate one side of a warring group with Christ, and then make the claim that I should sacrifice mine and my families life to save them. In other words, the wars of other people should not really be my business.

Jesus himself said: “When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other to him as well.” God is clear: no fighting. We are not supposed to resist the evil people of the world.
 
Jesus himself said: “When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other to him as well.” God is clear: no fighting. We are not supposed to resist the evil people of the world.
I respect your personal beliefs but can’t agree with them. Jesus also told him without a sword, to sell his cloak and buy one. He also drove the moneychangers out of His temple with physical force.

The extent of Jesus’s pacifism has been debated for millennia, but it has often been noted that by specifically noting the right cheek, He appeared to be saying that one should not respond to physical taunts and challenges, as a slap to the right cheek would usually come from a backhand slap from an antagonist, as a challenge to a fight, which scholars have claimed was a Jewish idiom similar to our custom of challenging one to a duel. One* should *walk away from such challenges.

It should also be noted that Jesus did NOT literally turn His own cheek when struck by member of the Sanhedrin, but attempted reason - an appropriate response.

Jesus did not resist the events of the Passion, as that was obviously His role.

One should NOT allow an innocent to come to harm by avoiding resistance to evil, nor has the Catholic Church taught this in the Catechism. I doubt the Catholic chaplains who accompanied the troops ashore on D-Day would agree with the viewpoint that we are not to resist the evil people of the world. As Jesus ordered us to lay down our lives for our friends, that would seem to include physical resistance.
 
I respect your personal beliefs but can’t agree with them. Jesus also told him without a sword, to sell his cloak and buy one. He also drove the moneychangers out of His temple with physical force.

The extent of Jesus’s pacifism has been debated for millennia, but it has often been noted that by specifically noting the right cheek, He appeared to be saying that one should not respond to physical taunts and challenges, as a slap to the right cheek would usually come from a backhand slap from an antagonist, as a challenge to a fight, which scholars have claimed was a Jewish idiom similar to our custom of challenging one to a duel. One* should *walk away from such challenges.

It should also be noted that Jesus did NOT literally turn His own cheek when struck by member of the Sanhedrin, but attempted reason - an appropriate response.

Jesus did not resist the events of the Passion, as that was obviously His role.

One should NOT allow an innocent to come to harm by avoiding resistance to evil, nor has the Catholic Church taught this in the Catechism. I doubt the Catholic chaplains who accompanied the troops ashore on D-Day would agree with the viewpoint that we are not to resist the evil people of the world. As Jesus ordered us to lay down our lives for our friends, that would seem to include physical resistance.
It is extremely ironic for me to counter argue. I used to think exactly as you did; indeed would I cite the same examples–the exact same examples. True also, a name apparently shared by both of ‘we respondents’ would even lend credence to your claim: “Saint Michael the archangel defend us in battle.”

Let me explain to you in the way of scripture what changed me. First and foremost: the way of the cross. So mysterious and impossible to conceive, anyone refuting this as an example of non violence should simply pray upon it at the stations of the cross for a clear answer: the sin indigenous and grounded in the law is glaring. To even think of the resurrection and its joy at such stations of prayer was/is for me to confront an emotional perplexity that is perhaps impossible to understand. I suspect we are all guilty of such feelings. For me, the if the feeling of Easter joy arises at the stations, it feels near totally inappropriate for the moment and even tinged with evil.

As for the whip at the temple: such profanity as the money changers etc. were guilty of would likely have been sins worthy of stoning or other morbid condemnation. It was never recorded that any of these people struck Jesus. Furthermore, the prophesy was “Zeal for his father’s house shall consume him.”

Your remark about the use of reason. This could simply be the other cheek in figurative terms. The gospel is, after all, a weapon of righteousness.
Lastly, there is the issue of the cutting of the chief priests guard’s ear. Jesus was clear there in words also: Mt 26:52 “…put your sword back in its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” He spoke of literal swords. He also saved the adulterous woman from stoning.​

War, the tradition of human violence rooted in the law, is the tendency of the flesh. In that sense I cannot nor can anyone judge your beliefs.

I think it a mistake to attribute any type of violence to Jesus.

Hell is a violence of course; but the official teaching of the church is that it is a violence that can only inflicted upon oneself (e.g. the suicide of Judas).

No matter what the sin, a repentant person can be saved.
 
It is extremely ironic for me to counter argue. I used to think exactly as you did; indeed would I cite the same examples–the exact same examples. True also, a name apparently shared by both of ‘we respondents’ would even lend credence to your claim: “Saint Michael the archangel defend us in battle.”
Again, I respect your beliefs although I disagree with the premises. I’d note that St. Michael, who was likely the namesake for both of us, is also officially recognized by the Church as the patron saint of soldiers (especially paratroopers, who are not usually a pacifist group) and law enforcement officers, and most Catholic police officers wear a St. Michael medal or have a visor clip on the sun visor of their patrol car. This would seem to be a recognition of the Church that those who use force to protect the innocent are good people and worthy of an intercessor.
Let me explain to you in the way of scripture what changed me. First and foremost: the way of the cross. So mysterious and impossible to conceive, anyone refuting this as an example of non violence should simply pray upon it at the stations of the cross for a clear answer: the sin indigenous and grounded in the law is glaring. To even think of the resurrection and its joy at such stations of prayer was/is for me to confront an emotional perplexity that is perhaps impossible to understand. I suspect we are all guilty of such feelings. For me, the if the feeling of Easter joy arises at the stations, it feels near totally inappropriate for the moment and even tinged with evil.
I can’t, and won’t attempt, to try to argue you out of the conclusions you have drawn from this devotion. I would simply note that the evils inherent in the Roman law, (or Nazi law) or any unjust human law, are not equivalent to the protection of the innocent, which Christ clearly called upon us to do.
As for the whip at the temple: such profanity as the money changers etc. were guilty of would likely have been sins worthy of stoning or other morbid condemnation. It was never recorded that any of these people struck Jesus. Furthermore, the prophesy was “Zeal for his father’s house shall consume him.”
His father’s house is also my Father’s house, and I should zealously protect it, as well. If we adhere to a strict policy of pacifism (and I apologize if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your moral position as such), how do we reconcile the protection of the Faith?

Saints of the Catholic Church used physical force to protect Christian believers against forced conversion to another religion, and in the case of St. Augustine’s parishioners, used physical force to rescue those who had been abducted by Gallacian slave traders.

St. John of Capistrano, the scion of an Italian warrior family before he became a Franciscan priest, was asked by the Pope to lead the forces protecting the Christians at the Siege of Belgrade against the Turkish invaders, and along with the Hungarian warlord John Hunyadi, led a largely peasant army to the defense of the besieged Christians. (The noblemen of eastern Europe, who hoped to pursue a separate and profitable peace with the Islamic invaders, mostly declined to assist, with the the notable exception of Wallachian Prince Vlad Tepes, the historical model for Dracula, whose troops attacked and prevented Islamic forces from reinforcing the siegers). St. John led from the front, and at an advanced age was heavily involved in battle. The victory turned back the invaders, and the Pope recognized the Feast of the Transfiguration (which honors the day Christ’s divinity was revealed to the apostles) on the date of the victory, and ordered that all church bells be rung throughout Christendom at noon forever after, in honor of the Christian troops that defended Belgrade.

So the next time you’re downtown and hear the church bells ringing at noon, they’re actually honoring the defeat of Islamic invaders who sought to forcibly convert Christians, as part of a venerable Catholic tradition.

The point of this little historical anecdote is to consider that physical force is sometimes necessary to preserve the community of believers. Based on history, if Europe had fallen to the Ottoman Empire, most of the Christians would have been enslaved, their children taken from them and stripped of their faith and raised as Muslims (as happened with the Janissaries, the shock troops of the Ottoman Empire), their Christian names taken, their women and daughters renamed with Muslim names and taken into the conqueror’s harems, Christians would have been forbidden to practice their religion, their priests put to death, their churches sacked and converted to Islamic temples, and the practice of the sacraments, including the Eucharist, forbidden and soon forgotten by the next generation, who would have been raised under Islam.

One should avoid violence where possible, but not in defense of the innocent, or in defense of the faith.

To say that some things are not worth fighting for is not the same as saying nothing is worth fighting for.
 
Let me set up the following well-known hypothetical scenario: I am a German hiding Jews in his basement during the Holocaust. The Nazis knock on my door and ask me if I am hiding any Jews. Personally I would lie and say “No,” knowing full well that it is a venial sin. Then I would confess the venial sin later (or have it forgiven at Communion). Otherwise if I try to do what the Church says to do and tell the truth in a roundabout way so as to deflect the Nazis from their goal, they may interrogate me further and get the real truth out of me.
In this situation, I seriously doubt it would be a sin to lie. You see, the lie would be made in order to protect people from being killed. In the case of the Nazi’s, it is my opinion that since their objective would be to capture and lead Jewish people to their death, they would not be entitled to the truth
Does this make me a cafeteria Catholic?
No, we’re all sinners and we screw up every now and then
 
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