Lying in the Bible

[JaredR]

What do you think about incidents of lying in the Bible? For example, in Joshua 2 Rahab lies to protect the Israelite spies. In 1 Samuel 22 David lies to Ahimelech about running away to protect himself from Saul.

Do these incidents suggest that lying is sometimes acceptable?

 

[Peter_Dawson]

What do you think about incidents of lying in the Bible? For example, in Joshua 2 Rahab lies to protect the Israelite spies. In 1 Samuel 22 David lies to Ahimelech about running away to protect himself from Saul.

Do these incidents suggest that lying is sometimes acceptable?

Arguably, even Jesus lied.

 

[AthanasiusOx]

St Thomas Aquinas wrote about this issue, I will leave it to you to look at what he has said about the passages in question, as if I try to summarise I will do a bad job.

However: I will put it how my philosophy tutor at Oxford explained it to me in a tutorial on Aristotle’s Ethics. Basically, something sinful is ALWAYS sinful; but there are of course mitigating circumstances. Aristotle recognises acting under compulsion, although this is insufficient since his idea of compulsion might exclude e.g. emotional duress leaving it more or less a useless caveat. St Thomas’ point, to all intents and purposes, was that there are some occasions when it is impossible not to commit a sin. In such cases, one may regard a greater good that derives from one (still sinful) choice as outweighing the sinfulness of that choice.

This seems to be what is happening when Old Testament figures lie. Others, not least the Angelic Doctor, can provide a fuller examination of the passages in question.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

St Thomas Aquinas wrote about this issue, I will leave it to you to look at what he has said about the passages in question, as if I try to summarise I will do a bad job.

However: I will put it how my philosophy tutor at Oxford explained it to me in a tutorial on Aristotle’s Ethics. Basically, something sinful is ALWAYS sinful; but there are of course mitigating circumstances. Aristotle recognises acting under compulsion, although this is insufficient since his idea of compulsion might exclude e.g. emotional duress leaving it more or less a useless caveat. St Thomas’ point, to all intents and purposes, was that there are some occasions when it is impossible not to commit a sin. In such cases, one may regard a greater good that derives from one (still sinful) choice as outweighing the sinfulness of that choice.

This seems to be what is happening when Old Testament figures lie. Others, not least the Angelic Doctor, can provide a fuller examination of the passages in question.

If this is Aquinas’ analysis, he is wrong. Sometimes, lying is morally required. Sometimes, telling the truth is deeply sinful.

 

[AthanasiusOx]

If this is Aquinas’ analysis, he is wrong. Sometimes, lying is morally required. Sometimes, telling the truth is deeply sinful.

Examples?

You are right to say that one is often obligated by other moral precepts (especially charity) to perform a particular action, and this may sometimes include lying. The point is that this does not stop lying from being wrong - it’s right there in the Decalogue, it’s natural law. But sometimes it may be right to do a wrong.

Telling the truth, per se, can never be sinful. However, the concomitant action may be. If one harms a person through telling the truth, to the extent that one has committed a sin then it is not telling the truth that has been sinful, it is causing the harm. For example, if someone hiding Jews from the Nazis answers truthfully to the Nazi where they are hidden, then this can be deemed sinful: but it is not the telling the truth that is the sin, it is revealing the whereabouts of the hidden Jews, or perhaps it is the lack of charity for the Nazis that one is willing for them to sin, or lack of charity for the Jews that one is willing for them to be arrested/killed/tortured etc.* You may think this is a tenuous distinction, but it is a valid one nonetheless.

I would hesitate to criticise the Angelic Doctor! Although I may of course have misunderstood him!

(* naturally there are many caveats depending on the precise situation, e.g. if the truth-teller knows what is going to happen, if he even intends the final result, if he is under extreme duress etc.)

 

[AthanasiusOx]

Arguably, even Jesus lied.

When?

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Examples?

You are right to say that one is often obligated by other moral precepts (especially charity) to perform a particular action, and this may sometimes include lying. The point is that this does not stop lying from being wrong - it’s right there in the Decalogue, it’s natural law. But sometimes it may be right to do a wrong.

Example: After the Nazis took the Netherlands, they sent SS to the home of everyone to flush-out Jews hiding with Gentile families.

Imagine three stormtroopers, armed with machineguns, going door to door in your neighborhood.

They come to a row of townhouses. Each of the townhouses has Jews hiding in the walls.

Mr. and Mrs. Smith are approached by the Nazis first, as Mr. and Mrs. Jones and Mr. and Mrs. Doe watch from their front doors.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

Mr. Smith, to avoid the sin of lying because you convinced the Smith’s that lying is always a sin and therefore always offensive to God, keeps silent. Mrs. Smith changes the subject for the same reason.

Unsatisfied with the answers, two stormtroopers enter. One stays behind to keep an eye on the Jones’ and the Doe’s. Machinegun shots are heard. The stormtroopers drag-out 4 bloodied bodies of Jewish children found hiding in the walls. Mr. and Mrs. Smith are lined-up against their house and executed with machinegun fire.

Next, it’s the Jones’ turn.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

The Jones resolve to honor God by telling the full truth. “We will not lie! We are good Catholics. And, we are fans of AthanasiusOx. So, yes, we have Jews in there!”

Thoroughly satisfied with the answers, two stormtroopers enter. One stays behind to keep an eye on the Doe’s. Machinegun shots are heard. The stormtroopers drag-out 4 bloodied bodies of Jewish children found hiding in the walls. The commanding officer of the small unit, splattered with the children’s blood, says, “It is good for you to avoid sin in this way! You will go straight to Heaven!” And he smiles and shakes their hands.

Finally, it’s the Doe’s turn.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

Mr. Doe, filled with zeal, decides to tell the best lies he has ever told in his life.

“No, we don’t, friend. But our walls are filled with British, French, Americans and Russians! And we have Jewish cookies in our pantry, straight from the concentration camps! So, please, come in, shoot up our walls, and dine on some cookies!” Mr. and Mrs. Doe burst out laughing, and start urging the stormtroopers to come in. “Please, come in! We really do have dinner in the oven. Chicken! The best you’ve ever tasted! We put on extra when we heard that you were making the rounds!”

The SS, unused to such a warm welcome, and to such anti-Allied and antisemitic sentiments, relax, thank the Doe’s, and go on to the next house.

The 36 Jewish children in the walls of their attic are saved!

Now, tell us all here how God will view the Smith’s, the Jones’ and the Doe’s.

 

[AthanasiusOx]

Example: After the Nazis took the Netherlands, they sent SS to the home of everyone to flush-out Jews hiding with Gentile families.

Imagine three stormtroopers, armed with machineguns, going door to door in your neighborhood.

They come to a row of townhouses. Each of the townhouses has Jews hiding in the walls.

Mr. and Mrs. Smith are approached by the Nazis first, as Mr. and Mrs. Jones and Mr. and Mrs. Doe watch from their front doors.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

Mr. Smith, to avoid the sin of lying because you convinced the Smith’s that lying is always a sin and therefore always offensive to God, keeps silent. Mrs. Smith changes the subject for the same reason.

Unsatisfied with the answers, two stormtroopers enter. One stays behind to keep an eye on the Jones’ and the Doe’s. Machinegun shots are heard. The stormtroopers drag-out 4 bloodied bodies of Jewish children found hiding in the walls. Mr. and Mrs. Smith are lined-up against their house and executed with machinegun fire.

Next, it’s the Jones’ turn.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

The Jones resolve to honor God by telling the full truth. “We will not lie! We are good Catholics. And, we are fans of AthanasiusOx. So, yes, we have Jews in there!”

Thoroughly satisfied with the answers, two stormtroopers enter. One stays behind to keep an eye on the Doe’s. Machinegun shots are heard. The stormtroopers drag-out 4 bloodied bodies of Jewish children found hiding in the walls. The commanding officer of the small unit, splattered with the children’s blood, says, “It is good for you to avoid sin in this way! You will go straight to Heaven!” And he smiles and shakes their hands.

Finally, it’s the Doe’s turn.

The stormtroopers ask, “Do you have any Jews hiding in there somewhere?”

Mr. Doe, filled with zeal, decides to tell the best lies he has ever told in his life.

“No, we don’t, friend. But our walls are filled with British, French, Americans and Russians! And we have Jewish cookies in our pantry, straight from the concentration camps! So, please, come in, shoot up our walls, and dine on some cookies!” Mr. and Mrs. Doe burst out laughing, and start urging the stormtroopers to come in. “Please, come in! We really do have dinner in the oven. Chicken! The best you’ve ever tasted! We put on extra when we heard that you were making the rounds!”

The SS, unused to such a warm welcome, and to such anti-Allied and antisemitic sentiments, relax, thank the Doe’s, and go on to the next house.

The 36 Jewish children in the walls of their attic are saved!

Now, tell us all here how God will view the Smith’s, the Jones’ and the Doe’s.

Yes, all very emotive, but I can’t help but feeling you didn’t read what I wrote very carefully, since you seem to think that I was arguing in favour of e.g. truth-telling to the SS in your scenarios.

So I’ll say it again. Sometimes it is right to sin. That does not stop the sin being a sin.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Yes, all very emotive, but I can’t help but feeling you didn’t read what I wrote very carefully, since you seem to think that I was arguing in favour of e.g. truth-telling to the SS in your scenarios.

So I’ll say it again. Sometimes it is right to sin. That does not stop the sin being a sin.

I did read your post. This logic – “Sometimes it is right to sin. That does not stop the sin being a sin” – is PRECISELY what I was addressing.

Here is the answer you did not give: God will laugh at the idea that lying is always a sin. And God will sometimes condemn to Hell people who sinned by not lying.

Unfortunately, morality is not simple.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I did read your post. This logic – “Sometimes it is right to sin. That does not stop the sin being a sin” – is PRECISELY what I was addressing.

Here is the answer you did not give: God will laugh at the idea that lying is always a sin. And God will sometimes condemn to Hell people who sinned by not lying.

Unfortunately, morality is not simple.

Still, I’m curious what you said about Jesus being a liar.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Still, I’m curious what you said about Jesus being a liar.

Hi, Christine.

There is an instance in John’s gospel where Jesus seems to tell a “white lie” – in other words, a lie – to get the Apostles off His back! He apparently didn’t want them to announce His arrival in town for one of the Jewish festivals. So, He tells them, “You go; I’m not going this year.” The Apostles go, then He goes anyway, but in secret.

See John 7:8-10.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Hi, Christine.

There is an instance in John’s gospel where Jesus seems to tell a “white lie” – in other words, a lie – to get the Apostles off His back! He apparently didn’t want them to announce His arrival in town for one of the Jewish festivals. So, He tells them, “You go; I’m not going this year.” The Apostles go, then He goes anyway, but in secret.

See John 7:8-10.

Hi Peter,

Okay I see, (because of course, Jesus was without sin). I liked your Nazi analogy by the way. Telling the truth then would have been a terrible sin.

I think being too truthful can be wrong too, especially if it is hurtful to others.

But aren’t you an attorney - the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?

 

[AthanasiusOx]

I did read your post. This logic – “Sometimes it is right to sin. That does not stop the sin being a sin” – is PRECISELY what I was addressing.

Here is the answer you did not give: God will laugh at the idea that lying is always a sin. And God will sometimes condemn to Hell people who sinned by not lying.

Unfortunately, morality is not simple.

I still don’t get the impression that you really understand what I was saying. I hardly think my comments so far could be accused of trying to make morality simple!!!

Your Nazi example only illustrated the point I had already made - I don’t disagree with your conclusions! At the end of the day, we talking about a fine line of semantics I suppose: my point would be that God would not be sending someone to hell because he had told the truth but because he had committed a different sin by telling the truth, which outweighs the sin of lying. That does not change the relationship of truth to the eternal law.

[a further development of the argument would be that since Jesus is truth, and God is perfection, in Him can be no deceit as this would be a logical contradiction of His nature: the sin of lying is, in effect, going against the perfect and non-deceptive nature of God. The circumstances in which is right to lie do not - CAN not - change this fundamental relationship, although the imperfect nature of human existence means that there is sometimes conflict in our moral actions between this precept and other precepts. The commandment not to lie belongs ultimately to the commandment to love, since God is indeed Love (and therefore the Truth of God’s Being needs to be seen as perfectly harmonious with Love), so when we find ourselves unable to make a human situation of love compatible with truth, we needs must make a compromise for the sake of love].

Your quotation from John is more apposite, since that really does seem to point towards the particularist morality you are arguing for. I will give this some more thought.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Hi Peter,

Okay I see, (because of course, Jesus was without sin). I liked your Nazi analogy by the way. Telling the truth then would have been a terrible sin.

I think being too truthful can be wrong too, especially if it is hurtful to others.

But aren’t you an attorney - the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?

When I was in the Philly DA’s Office, the detectives called the lawyers “liars,” and the lawyers called the detectives “defectives.”

 

[Peter_Dawson]

I still don’t get the impression that you really understand what I was saying. I hardly think my comments so far could be accused of trying to make morality simple!!!

Your Nazi example only illustrated the point I had already made - I don’t disagree with your conclusions! At the end of the day, we talking about a fine line of semantics I suppose: my point would be that God would not be sending someone to hell because he had told the truth but because he had committed a different sin by telling the truth, which outweighs the sin of lying. That does not change the relationship of truth to the eternal law.

[a further development of the argument would be that since Jesus is truth, and God is perfection, in Him can be no deceit as this would be a logical contradiction of His nature: the sin of lying is, in effect, going against the perfect and non-deceptive nature of God. The circumstances in which is right to lie do not - CAN not - change this fundamental relationship, although the imperfect nature of human existence means that there is sometimes conflict in our moral actions between this precept and other precepts. The commandment not to lie belongs ultimately to the commandment to love, since God is indeed Love (and therefore the Truth of God’s Being needs to be seen as perfectly harmonious with Love), so when we find ourselves unable to make a human situation of love compatible with truth, we needs must make a compromise for the sake of love].

Your quotation from John is more apposite, since that really does seem to point towards the particularist morality you are arguing for. I will give this some more thought.

I think that here is the philosophical problem: The Devil would love you to destroy and murder as many people as possible with the truth.

I think that if God rewards you for saving 36 children by a very, very brave lie, the lie is not a sin BECAUSE He rewards you for your lie. I.e., if the lie I described is still a “sin,” then God MUST, by His Own internal logic, punish the hero who saved so many lives.

That’s just plain crazy.

Allow me to be blunt: People want easy answers in a complex world. So, they say things like, “Lying is ALWAYS a sin.”

But that’s simply not true because there are no easy answers.

 

[grannymh]

Your quotation from John is more apposite, since that really does seem to point towards the particularist morality you are arguing for. I will give this some more thought.

If you have a Catholic Bible, do check the footnotes for explanations. Also note verse 8 with its play (two meanings) on the words “go up” and then read the end of the verse in the context of salvation.

 

[juliamajor]

The Bible has interesting characters who are fully human.Of course some are going to lie.Too many people have this image of the people in the Bible as goody two shoes.Some were most were not .they acted as a human beings do.Some with nobiity others not so noble-Rahab was being pragmatic-going with a’sure thing’ and maybe a chance to start a new life in the Promised Land.

 

[grace_singh]

this is just my take, but i would say yes, lying is sometimes acceptable, if it’s the will of God and not of man.

like, if i decide to willfully lie to someone in an attempt to “help” a situation (or just for the sake of lying), that would be wrong. e.g. Abaraham’s lie and attempted explaination of his relationship to Sarah in Genesis 12:10-20 and Genesis 20.

but if God allows the lie (as in the cases of Shifra and Puah or Rahab) to accomplish His will, that is ok. it’s His will and purpose working through and with our nature to accomplish His plan.

 

[LilyM]

I’ve heard a priest say ‘grey is the devil’s favourite colour’, and at times like this I’m inclined to agree.

Jesus is Truth incarnate - He proclaimed Himself to be the Truth. To lie to any extent is to offend against that truth. In other words to offend against God. How could God possibly endorse or approve any situation that causes offence to something that is His very core?

You say ‘the greater sin would be the sin against charity which would result from telling the truth’.

Well - do we trust, REALLY trust, that God never wants us to offend against Him in any way, not against His truth nor His charity - not even in the slightest teeniest tiniest particular? And thus that He will NEVER put us in a situation where we literally have no option but to offend against the one or 'tother? As He surely will not?

The example of the Nazis, as emotively compelling an argument as it may be, contains two fatal flaws.

The first is that we assume that it is up to us to save or condemn those Jews hidden in the attic. This is so much less the case in reality than anyone would think.Do you seriously imagine those Nazis would accept any excuse, however ingenious, simply at your say-so? The infinitely greater likelihood is that they would listen, search your house anyway, then kill you for lying to them as well as killing the Jews who were every bit as likely to be discovered no matter what you said or didn’t say.

The second fatal flaw is that we assume God’s will is the preservation of life at all costs. To be blunt, it isn’t. We know, from the example of the martyrs, from the example of those who honourably but regrettably have to defend their countries or homes by killing others who would threaten them, by Church teaching against embryonic stem cell research that might save lives, and its teaching that in some situations medical treatment that may prolong life may be refused, that ‘preserve life at all costs’ just isn’t a motto that is consistent with Catholicism. There are some values and aims that are more important even than life itself.

Who are you to say Truth isn’t, in some situations, equally important or more important than Life? After all, isn’t Jesus BOTH the Truth AND the Life?

 

[masterjedi747]

Sometimes, lying is morally required. Sometimes, telling the truth is deeply sinful.

…what are you on? Seriously?!
Have you picked up the Catholic Catechism lately?

2482 “A *lie *consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

If this is Aquinas’ analysis, he is wrong.

Tread carefully… the Church teaches what Aquinas (and Augustine) taught on this matter.
Summa Theologica, Part 2, Question 110 (1. Is lying always opposed to truth? - 2. The species of lying - 3. Is lying always a sin? - 4. Is it always a mortal sin? )

Sometimes it is right to sin.

…people, listen to yourselves. Hello?!? No… it’s not. It is never right to sin. Ever.

God will laugh at the idea that lying is always a sin.

I would be laughing at you, if I wasn’t so shocked to hear this nonsense being spouted on a Catholic forum…

Unfortunately, morality is not simple.

Uh… it’s pretty simple: Do good, and avoid evil.
(note: sin is always evil, and lying is always a sin…)

Arguably, even Jesus lied.

See John 7:8-10.
I’d certainly love to have a better grasp on the subject (for starters, I suspect that a better understanding of the original Greek would help clear things up) – but WHATEVER is going on there, I am certain that it is not a lie… because, quite simply, it’s not possible.

Allow me to be blunt: People want easy answers in a complex world. So, they say things like, “Lying is ALWAYS a sin.”

But that’s simply not true because there are no easy answers.

…are you a Catholic, or aren’t you? Lying IS always a sin. You can debate about whether something falls under the definition of “lying” or not (see the following article for some thoughts: catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=242), but you cannot get away from the fact that lying (like murder) is intrinsically evil, and (however understandable or forgivable in certain situations) can never be approved of. Toughen up. Seriously. Use mental reservation, cleverly avoid the question, or, if you must, simply refuse to answer… but do not sit here and pretend that “sometimes it’s OK to sin” for the sake of a greater good. Because it’s not.