Lying is a sin EVEN if they don't have a "right to know"?

[vera_dicere]

I think this is one of those “splitting hairs” sorts of things.

The Nazi vs. Jew “lie/omission” may seem far fetched but there are plenty of opportunities that are almost on par with this.

I once lied, and I won’t apologise for that, to a man who beat his wife to miscarriage and then ran her down with his car leaving her with two broken legs and a shattered pelvis. He had come up previously to the ward and had started yelling at her and tried to strike out at another nurse. [At this point the cops had not officially charged the guy and we were really unable to do anything bar call secuirty - who also couldn’t do anything].

He rung, asked if she was still on the ward, I told him, no, and that she had been transferred to another facility - that was what the woman wanted me to tell him. He beleived it and we never saw him on site again and he never called again. Part of this lie we also had to tell a large group of her friends and family that she was not here.

Then there’s the whole parents asking you if their child has had sex, done drugs, et cetera, we are bound by privacy and law to not tell the parents, when they ask up front “has my child told you they have had sex/done drugs?” Even saying “im not at liberty to disclose that, privacy et cetera, ask them” they immediatly jump to the conclusion, and usually teh right one, that they have told you.

And then there’s the media who ring up… or the time we had to get a 6 bedded room of people to not tell the 14 year old her parents and siblings were killed in a car crash because she hadn’t been told yet officially by her guardians and it was not our place to tell her apparently.

Heck, even something as non-life threathening as a patient not wanting to talk to someoen who rings up, so they get you to say something like “they’re sleeping/in the shower/with the doctor/at Xray”. Like the pt who attempted suicide who’s parents are just the nastiest people youv’e ever met - very abusive - and when they ring we can’t let them speak to the patient because it ends up making an emotional wreck. So the parents get the “they’re asleep now”.

Yeah, satan’s favourite colour is grey, but there are situations where you relaly do have to omitt the truth or out and out lie to protect someone or information.

It’d be nice to live in a world where this wasn’t the case, but we dont’ live in a nice world.

 

[smichhertz]

I doubt that the Church could clarify the moral standing of every conceivable situation in which ‘deception’ is used.

I’m not really interested in that so much as a “rule of thumb”. The problem is, I always thought it was acceptable to lie if the person had no right to know. That gave me a reasonable amount of wiggle room to tell falsehoods without sinning. But with the new CCC definition of lying, any time you tell a falsehood that misleads you would be lying and therefore sinning. So all of the good scenarios you mentioned where lying was acceptable in the FIRST edition are no longer permissible in the SECOND edition.

Hence my question, does the removal of the “right to know” portion in paragraph 2487 mean that I can no longer “lie” if the person has no right to know? It would seem so, but that would undoubtedly create countless situations where one is either forced to sin by lying or disclosing the truth.

Hence my confusion.

 

[smichhertz]

I think this is one of those “splitting hairs” sorts of things.

Perhaps, but remember that the CCC serves as a great guide to Catholics for matters of faith and morals. And although a small change, this omission of “right to know” sends shockwaves, so to speak, morally. I do think it’s important that we address it, as many posters have been assuming “right to know” without seeing the change.

I once lied, and I won’t apologise for that, etc…

Firstly, that’s awful, I’ll be sure to say a prayer for them. Secondly, I couldn’t agree with you more. There is an excellent scenario where it would seem the morally good thing to do would be to tell a falsehood with the intention of misleading another. The problem is, according to the CCC (as I understand it) you sinned when you lied. Now I don’t agree with that personally, and hopefully someone can clarify my interpretation, but I just don’t see a way around it and that is a BIG problem.

Then there’s the whole parents asking you if their child has had sex, done drugs, et cetera, we are bound by privacy and law to not tell the parents, when they ask up front “has my child told you they have had sex/done drugs?” Even saying “im not at liberty to disclose that, privacy et cetera, ask them” they immediatly jump to the conclusion, and usually teh right one, that they have told you.

EXACTLY! Thank you! A lot of posters have been mentioning certain “tricks” like mental reservation, deflection, refusing to answer, etc. But they don’t take into account that simply refusing to answer in and of itself CAN BE an answer. But again, according to the CCC, lying in all cases is a sin. Again, hence the big delimma.

Yeah, satan’s favourite colour is grey, but there are situations where you relaly do have to omitt the truth or out and out lie to protect someone or information.

It’d be nice to live in a world where this wasn’t the case, but we dont’ live in a nice world.

Agreed. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[nablaise]

We feel a need to lie because we are faced with death or terrible suffering
We think by lying we can save ourselves or others from it.
But as Christians we are called to be martyrs for the truth. To witness to the truth.
And the truth is that God is Lord in life and in death and in all suffering.
The truth is that God is everywhere, even in suffering and death.
We should encourage those in our protection to trust the Lord.
We should think of our Lord Jesus, the Truth, who suffered and died that we may learn all this and also remember him in our moment of temptation.
Remember he was proposed to to lie by the father of lies in the Garden of Gethsemane?
But he had to witness to the presence of the truth: that God is everywhere, even on the cross and in death.
And where there is God there is life, true life.
So we don’t save anyone by sparring them from the cross at the expense of truth.
We don’t save anyone by keeping them away from where God is.
We don’t love anyone by keeping them away from where true love (God) is.

On the contrary, we do them a disservice by letting them build trust in lies.
By this we are siding with the Devil who keeps us under the power of lies through fear of death.
Love without truth is false love not true love.

Let’s pray to Jesus and Mary to give us the right words and power of faith and hope so that we can be brave in witnessing to the truth.

CCC:
1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;

• the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56

• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58