Lying is ALWAYS a Sin: Resurrection Thread

[Kay_Cee]

If you check my previous posts, you’ll notice I never said which of the four options I actually did. Yet everybody has gravitated toward telling my mother the ice cream was sugar free.

Could it be that since, as St. Paul says, the law is written in our hearts, and we all know that was the right thing to do?

I’m still sick, so I’ll make this short. I did have a lot of time to think about this yesterday, since I wasn’t well enough to do much else. (Chesterton once said that being sick in bed and staring at the ceiling wouldn’t be so bad if you only had a really looooong crayon.)

I think perhaps the problem lies (sorry, no pun intended) with the definition of “lie.” I’ve looked it up in the dictionary, and as a noun it’s defined as “a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive.” As a verb it’s defined as “to speak falsely or utter untruth knowlingly, with the intent to deceive.”

So I’m kind of seeing it this way: when I die and have to stand in judgment before God, will I be punished for telling my mom the ice cream was sugar free? If the answer is yes, then God allowed me to be in a situation where I had no choice but to sin. If the answer is no, then this couldn’t have been a sin if God, who is all just, lets it slide.

I would think that God, who knows everything, knows it was not my intent to deceive. My intent was to save my mother’s life. If a lie must carry with it an intent to deceive, then does this fit the defintion of a lie at all?

Anyway, have fun discussing that. I might pop in here later today if I feel better.

 

[LaSainte]

I think in some ways, the catechism is not really fully explaining the idea of simply being “silent” instead of lying. Clearly, this would be impossible in the circumstance with the Nazis. Try just being silent when the Nazis come to your door and see how fast they come in and kill everyone in the place. Try mincing words so as not to outright lie and see how fast they become suspicious and again, come in and kill everyone in the place. Sometimes we just have to use common sense and try to do what we think God would want. In this scenario, I’m guessing that lying to help prevent the Jews from being slaughtered is ok.

Also, what about Santa Claus? We lie to our kids evey single year, and actually go to very elaborate extremes to pull these lies off! And don’t try saying that it’s not a lie because St. Nick was a real person. Unless Saint Nick actually flies around the world, guided by magical reindeer, cramming himself down chimneys to deliver toys made by tiny elves to all the boys and girls, then yes, we are LYING to our kids. And I have NEVER heard of the Catholic Church speaking out against this. Actually, they embrace and help to propagate the tradition of Santa in churches all over the world. So, yeah.

 

[Bookcat]

First off there could always be the question – “is such and such a lie?” or is the matter …the “object” (scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm#1750) in question a different one --where it is simply not “lying”? I leave that to the professional moral theologians to hash out… But such is a real question I would think.

Now…after having said that

–Yes it is a sin to lie…always. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9987095&postcount=8

But one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…“discreet language”.

Now failing such…

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way. It is just that in the world where various kinds of virtues must be lived in difficult circumstances -we are not always going to find the right way to do so to live each one at that moment as we ought-- we will commit venial sins unfortunately)

Other examples could also be given …

Now all this* does not* make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. I am not saying it is “ok” to thus lie or “hey it is only a venial sin in various cases” or encouraging anyone to lie etc. It is something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such….

 

[jimmy]

Dr. Kreeft’s scenario is very simple. If you’re hiding somebody and a murderer comes in and tells you to tell the truth and tell them where said person is hiding, you say “Nope.”

We’re talking about people who are extraordinarily holy here because I’ll be honest, I would almost certainly lie.

I don’t see how you can say they are extraordinarily holy. If you are hiding someone and say you will protect them, you have a duty to lie to those who are hunting them.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I don’t see how you can say they are extraordinarily holy. If you are hiding someone and say you will protect them, you have a duty to lie to those who are hunting them.

You haven’t read any of my posts, have you? Or else you have and you’re disagreeing with them without giving a reason.

 

[jimmy]

You haven’t read any of my posts, have you? Or else you have and you’re disagreeing with them without giving a reason.

I read the first one you posted and that is what I responded to

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I read the first one you posted and that is what I responded to

My position is that lying is always wrong. I pull out quotes from various articles written by Catholic Thomistic Dr. Edward Feser, who agrees with me, in defense of this view. If you’re not going to take them into account then your comment doesn’t really raise any particular point.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I don’t see how you can say they are extraordinarily holy. If you are hiding someone and say you will protect them, you have a duty to lie to those who are hunting them.

Also, let’s assume that lying is acceptable in these circumstances. Why would you have a DUTY to lie as opposed to simply saying you won’t reveal information?

 

[catholictiger]

I’m bumping this because of the dicussion that started on the santa clause thread while the topic of nazi’s and lying isn’t completely off topic I think its good if we discuss that on a thread that actually deals with that topic.

again I’m on hte side that if nazi’s or murders came to your door asking if someone you are hiding is there, you should lie to protect life.

the protection of life outweighs the evil of lying in this case. Even if lying in that case would be a sin it would be at worst a veinal sin.

 

[hannajomar]

It seems to violate logic that we would ever be required to sin in order to save a life. If we are supposed to tell the Nazis a falsehood in order to protect lives, then by nature it would not be sinning. During the Holocaust, people saved lives of Jews and other undesirables by lying. I think that would make me a pharisee to sit here in a time/place of peace and say that these people who put their own lives on the line by hiding Jews were venially sinning because they said “there’s no Jews in here” instead of coming up with come kind of legalistic jargon such as “why don’t you check in the house next door.”

We are not supposed to kill either, but there are times when it is okay, even necessary to kill another person. If the Nazis found the Jews in my home and were about to shoot them, and I had a gun, I would shoot the Nazis to save the lives of the Jews. That would not be a sin - not even a venial sin. So I can’t understand why the lying scenario is such a point of contention here. Sinning takes place in the heart.

 

[hannajomar]

Also, let’s assume that lying is acceptable in these circumstances. Why would you have a DUTY to lie as opposed to simply saying you won’t reveal information?

Because the Nazis at your door will kill you if you say you won’t reveal information. Then they’ll kill your family sitting in your living room, and then they’ll find the Jews hiding in your attic and kill them too. I think it would be a very cold-hearted God who would rather us technically not lie than to save a life.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Because the Nazis at your door will kill you if you say you won’t reveal information. Then they’ll kill your family sitting in your living room, and then they’ll find the Jews hiding in your attic and kill them too. I think it would be a very cold-hearted God who would rather us technically not lie than to save a life.

First, let’s not assume our perceived idea of what is good for us onto Almighty God.
Second, you’re changing the situation now. But okay, I’ll play. You can try a narrow mental reservation if that’s possible. Also, why on Earth are they searching the attic now? Wouldn’t they check the attic either way? I know this sounds as if I’m trying to get around the question but in real life you look for loopholes in situations such as this.

BUT-would it be right for me to lie, even if they say they’ll kill my family? No, it wouldn’t be, and you should have made this straight both with the Jews you’re hiding and with your family before you decided to hide these people. There are always risks.

Now, if you did lie, your intentions, as well as the good deed you’re doing besides (protecting the innocent), would probably please God far, far more than such a puny venial sin would disappoint him. So don’t sweat it.

These are all arguments from emotion. You have the answer. Now find fault in the arguments, not the conclusions.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m bumping this because of the dicussion that started on the santa clause thread while the topic of nazi’s and lying isn’t completely off topic I think its good if we discuss that on a thread that actually deals with that topic.

again I’m on hte side that if nazi’s or murders came to your door asking if someone you are hiding is there, you should lie to protect life.

the protection of life outweighs the evil of lying in this case. Even if lying in that case would be a sin it would be at worst a veinal sin.

You are correct, it would only be an extremely tiny, almost insignificant, venial sin, and God would bless you far more for the good you’re doing. But ideally, the most holy of people wouldn’t lie. And if they have family or people they’re hiding, they would make this straight with them in advance.

I’m sorry, the ends don’t justify the means.

 

[hannajomar]

I don’t see how God would bless someone who is sinning in order to do good. The ends do not justify the means as you’ve said.

I believe that making false statements is not intrinsically evil. On these threads, it has already been established that there are times when it is acceptable to knowingly give false statements such as “I’m fine” or “You look nice” in the spirit of social pleasantries. I am having trouble seeing how those are not sins, but saying a false statement for the sake of saving someone’s life is a sin.

Also, I’m not presuming anything about God. The point of these discussions is to attempt to learn how to behave in a way that’s pleasing to Him.

 

[jimmy]

Also, let’s assume that lying is acceptable in these circumstances. Why would you have a DUTY to lie as opposed to simply saying you won’t reveal information?

Let me take that back maybe not a duty to lie, but I would say that it is better and more virtuous to lie in this situation. Your priorities are more in line with what is good and what is important.

 

[catholictiger]

You are correct, it would only be an extremely tiny, almost insignificant, venial sin, and God would bless you far more for the good you’re doing. But ideally, the most holy of people wouldn’t lie. And if they have family or people they’re hiding, they would make this straight with them in advance.

I’m sorry, the ends don’t justify the means.

glad to see we agree.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

glad to see we agree.

How do we agree? It is good that you’re lying for that cause. But preferably, you wouldn’t be lying at all. I want to make this clear, because it seems that comment raised a misunderstanding. Ideally, no lying. You shouldn’t do it. But if you do, sleep well at night.

 

[catholictiger]

How do we agree? It is good that you’re lying for that cause. But preferably, you wouldn’t be lying at all. I want to make this clear, because it seems that comment raised a misunderstanding. Ideally, no lying. You shouldn’t do it. But if you do, sleep well at night.

the fact that we agree the correct thing to do is to lie in this situation maybe I was misread your post.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Let me take that back maybe not a duty to lie, but I would say that it is better and more virtuous to lie in this situation. Your priorities are more in line with what is good and what is important.

Lying is not good. Your priority is never to lie.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

the fact that we agree the correct thing to do is to lie in this situation maybe I was misread your post.

Yes, it was a misreading. Don’t sweat it, what I was trying to say is kind of awkward to explain.