Lying Is ALWAYS a Sin

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yeahmann

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I’m posting for the first time here because I felt I needed to point out some bad advice given in the “Ask an Apologist” section. I discovered the posts while Googling and I’m concerned that others may also stumble across them. Maybe those posts can be edited to reflect the correct teachings of the Church.

The questions deal with undercover work.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=751669
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2626034

The Catechism is very clear:
“A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means.” CCC 1753.

St. Augustine says we can tolerate these sort of lies but should not applaud them:
“It is quite enough that the deception should be pardoned, without its being made an object of laudation, especially among the heirs of the new covenant, to whom it is said: Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these comes of evil.”

Like the prohibitions against pre-marital sex and torture, the ban on lying is something modern Catholics tend to ignore, even justify and applaud. The fact that our society does not consider lying immoral, does not abrogate the 8th commandment. Catholics may not engage in undercover work that involves lying. Neither the fact that it’s commonplace nor the fact that it produces good results, justifies cooperating with Satan. It’s not I, but God, who made this rule.

“Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? . . . After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?” John 6:61, 67-8.
 
Then when my wife asks me if her behind looks big in this dress then I guess I will be a sinnin.😦
 
DCNBILL said:
Then when my wife asks me if her behind looks big in this dress then I guess I will be a sinnin.😦
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That’s a peeve of mine because the lie is so unnecessary. If they expect us to lie, why ask the question? If all men suddenly decided to answer honestly, they’d stop asking and the world would be a better place.
 
I do not think they are asking for us to lie, I think that they are looking for our approval at their appearance. There are some women who need to hear their spouce say that they still look attractive to them and if the husband is not attentive to this they will find ways to prod them. I for one try not to say things that would hurt my wifes feelings, there are enough strains on relationships these days without going there. That being said, if I saw her going out wearing something I know would be embarrasing to her I would tactfully let her know.
 
With all due respect, this is a bit silly.

Classic example is this-Would you lie to a nazi if you where hiding jewish people in your house? Most sane people would. I sure as heck would.

Would you lie to an abortionist to get him/her to stop preforming those henious acts? (Imagine that you could, strictly hypothetical)

Undcover work by police can save lives!

Relax over this. Lying to co-workers about this or that IS mortally sinful. Lying to a Nazi or an abortionist, while not pleasent and certianly not moral, is not wrong.
 
yeahmann said:
Catholics may not engage in undercover work that involves lying.
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Oh boy. New rules for the CIA, NSA, FBI, and undercover cops: no Catholics need apply. But I have a relative who works for the NSA–he’s not even allowed to acknowledge the existence of his work. Bad Catholic?

Lying is sometimes taken too literally as a moral precept. If a woman–or a man–is looking for validation by asking “do I look OK?”, “does this outfit make me look fat?” “am I as good looking as X or Y?”, they are not looking for a factual analysis, they are looking for reassurance. And such reassurance ought not to be taken as a lie.

And on a more serious note, if someone seeking an abortion asks me if I know the location of the abortion clinic, I’m going to say “no” even if I’m standing right next to it.
 
Rascalking said:
With all due respect, this is a bit silly.

Classic example is this-Would you lie to a nazi if you where hiding jewish people in your house? Most sane people would. I sure as heck would.

Would you lie to an abortionist to get him/her to stop preforming those henious acts? (Imagine that you could, strictly hypothetical)

Undcover work by police can save lives!

Relax over this. Lying to co-workers about this or that IS mortally sinful. Lying to a Nazi or an abortionist, while not pleasent and certianly not moral, is not wrong.
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So, are you saying that the end justifies the means? How far outside the moral law are we permitted to stray in service to some noble end?
 
To the OP, this common attitude towards lying bothers me, too. It just seems too much like every other justification for sin I ever hear: “Oh but surely you can’t expect someone to not do so-and-so in THIS situation!”

Jesus clearly said, “Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no,” not “Let your yes mean yes unless you have a good enough reason not to.” :rolleyes: It’s not always easy, but then neither is Christianity.
 
Other_Eric said:
So, are you saying that the end justifies the means? How far outside the moral law are we permitted to stray in service to some noble end?
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I think in extreme cases-common sense should apply. In all seriousness, when you die and God judges you-Is he going to more upset with you for lying? Or, in the rare case of hiding a Jew from the Nazis-abating in the killing of innocent life. If you say, “Lord, I didn’t lie. But innocent people where killed. I feel good about not lying, however” Be my guest. (Not that you would, I’m just saying)

But my conscience would be much, much more bothered if I had blood on it.

Like I said, it’s an extreme case. Hopefully not one that will ever happen.
 
Rascalking said:
I think in extreme cases-common sense should apply. In all seriousness, when you die and God judges you-Is he going to more upset with you for lying? Or, in the rare case of hiding a Jew from the Nazis-abating in the killing of innocent life. If you say, “Lord, I didn’t lie. But innocent people where killed. I feel good about not lying, however” Be my guest. (Not that you would, I’m just saying)

But my conscience would be much, much more bothered if I had blood on it.

Like I said, it’s an extreme case. Hopefully not one that will ever happen.
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You would not have blood on your hands if you told the truth. Otherwise anyone could get you to do anything by telling you they’d shoot 20 children unless you did something bad, like desecrating the Eucharist. What’s the difference between this and lying? Only degree of sin, nothing else.

The moral thing to do in that situation is not tell the Nazi’s anything regarding the Jews. Why do you have to tell them a yes or no?
 
Luke_K said:
You would not have blood on your hands if you told the truth. Otherwise anyone could get you to do anything by telling you they’d shoot 20 children unless you did something bad, like desecrating the Eucharist. What’s the difference between this and lying? Only degree of sin, nothing else.

The moral thing to do in that situation is not tell the Nazi’s anything regarding the Jews. Why do you have to tell them a yes or no?
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Alright, I have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I would lie to the Nazis, and I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep over it.Like I said, God does have common sense.
 
yeahmann said:
I’m posting for the first time here because I felt I needed to point out some bad advice given in the “Ask an Apologist” section. I discovered the posts while Googling and I’m concerned that others may also stumble across them. Maybe those posts can be edited to reflect the correct teachings of the Church.

The questions deal with undercover work.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=751669
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2626034

The Catechism is very clear:
“A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means.” CCC 1753.

St. Augustine says we can tolerate these sort of lies but should not applaud them:
“It is quite enough that the deception should be pardoned, without its being made an object of laudation, especially among the heirs of the new covenant, to whom it is said: Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these comes of evil.”

Like the prohibitions against pre-marital sex and torture, the ban on lying is something modern Catholics tend to ignore, even justify and applaud. The fact that our society does not consider lying immoral, does not abrogate the 8th commandment. Catholics may not engage in undercover work that involves lying. Neither the fact that it’s commonplace nor the fact that it produces good results, justifies cooperating with Satan. It’s not I, but God, who made this rule.

“Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? . . . After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?” John 6:61, 67-8.
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When someone greets you with “how are you”, don’t you ever say “fine” when you’re actually sick or troubled? That would also be an untruth even if you justify it as a simple greeting.
 
dusza said:
When someone greets you with “how are you”, don’t you ever say “fine” when you’re actually sick or troubled? That would also be an untruth even if you justify it as a simple greeting.
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Thank you! That’s what I was thinking! “So, how are you?Well, my wife and I got into a huge fight,my kid is a moron who can’t pass 3rd grade, my blood pressure is way up, and I’m taking medicine to get rid of a nasty infection”. 👍

Yeah, that’ll win friends.
 
There’s actually an article on this site somewhere that looks into this.

We must remember to love our neighbour as ourself. How would we want people to behave when our lives were at stake?

I don’t think I’d appreciate someone who is giving me asylum telling my persecutors when they ask if I am there: “I’m not telling”, or “I can’t say”, or even remaining silent.

This is a difficult subject I realize. But I’d have to say that I admire the courage of the people who did hide Jews during WW2 and lied to the Nazis about it. If they were to tell the Nazis the truth, or not say anything as to raise suspicion… I’d find that quite confusing.

the OP quoted the catechsim but from one of the links that was posted we have this quote from the ask an apologist:
The Catechism states that lying is never to be allowed (#2485) since the only purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. It is important to note, however that the Catechism is written for the ordinary Catholic in ordinary situations. Some theologians warn that there are extraordinary occasions where to tell the truth could cause a greater harm than the harm done by withholding it. Such would be the extraordinary occasions where a life or many lives can lie in the balance as the result of the truth an undercover agent conveys or chooses not to convey.
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I’m not saying I disagree with the Catechism, but I do believe there may be extraordinary occasions.
 
Rascalking said:
I think in extreme cases-common sense should apply. In all seriousness, when you die and God judges you-Is he going to more upset with you for lying? Or, in the rare case of hiding a Jew from the Nazis-abating in the killing of innocent life. If you say, “Lord, I didn’t lie. But innocent people where killed. I feel good about not lying, however” Be my guest. (Not that you would, I’m just saying)

But my conscience would be much, much more bothered if I had blood on it.

Like I said, it’s an extreme case. Hopefully not one that will ever happen.
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I think that appeals to “common sense” are, more often than not, a cop-out meant to excuse an argument whose ramifications have not been thought through. If we allow that an individual may act immorally simply because he has the intention that good may come of it, not only have we put ourselves in the position of calling St. Paul a liar, (1) but we have effectively gutted the Moral Law since everyone who has ever sinned has done so with the intention of some sort of good arising from it.

(1) Cf. New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Rom 3:7-8. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans3.htm
 
Who said it, that you could finish the entire sentence silently:

“No, No Jews in this house…except for the ones in the basement”
 
Other_Eric said:
I think that appeals to “common sense” are, more often than not, a cop-out meant to excuse an argument whose ramifications have not been thought through. If we allow that an individual may act immorally simply because he has the intention that good may come of it, not only have we put ourselves in the position of calling St. Paul a liar, (1) but we have effectively gutted the Moral Law since everyone who has ever sinned has done so with the intention of some sort of good arising from it.

(1) Cf. New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Rom 3:7-8. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans3.htm
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I think over analyzing things like “is it wrong to lie to Nazis” is insulting to Christianity.

We can’t afford to feel self righteous about the fact, “We don’t lie” if people die as a result.

Like I said, I think its best if we agree to disagree.
 
yeahmann said:
That’s a peeve of mine because the lie is so unnecessary. If they expect us to lie, why ask the question? If all men suddenly decided to answer honestly, they’d stop asking and the world would be a better place.
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You’re not married, are you? 😛 😉 😃
 
Newbie2 said:
Who said it, that you could finish the entire sentence silently:

“No, No Jews in this house…except for the ones in the basement”
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Actually, that would also be a lie since there’s an intent to deceive. You must be a lawyer. 🙂
 
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