D
dusza
Guest
I just occurred to me that if we were perfect, we’d answer every question with a parable. 
- Status
O
Other_Eric
Guest
Perhaps, although, you ought to know that St. Augustine himself addressed this very question of yours saying: “How much braver then, how much more excellent, to say, ‘I will neither betray nor lie?’” (1) Against how many will you maintain your position?
(1) Augustine. “On Lying.” Translated by H. Browne. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 3. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. #22. Available online at: newadvent.org/fathers/1312.htm
Y
yeahmann
Guest
If the purpose is to solicit a compliment, there are better ways than soliciting lies. Plus, there are ways to say things that aren’t so hurtful.
Most CIA, NSA, and FBI agents don’t do undercover work.
Moral precepts should be taken literally. If we can make exceptions whenever we wanted, they’d lose their moral force. I suppose it’s conceivable to argue that “reassuring” someone with a “white lie” is not really a lie because the questioner does not expect the truth. But that’s really pushing the boundaries of the definition.
If someone is looking for an abortion clinic, tell them “I’m not telling you.” Why is the first instinct to lie?
Usually, we say “fine” without thinking about it. Lying requires an intent to deceive the listener, which is why acting is not sinful and why saying “fine” when asked “how are you” is usually not a sin.
I created this post because I believe the apologist is clearly wrong.
W
wolfgang
Guest
Have you talked with the apologist about this? :coffeeread:
G
Garyjohn2
Guest
Lying is a sin. Telling the truth to Nazi’s about hiding people, even if they die, is not a sin. If those people then die, there is no blood on your conscience. If people die because we stood up for doing the right thing, God will be pleased with us. The only thing would happen is that some people would go home to Him a bit sooner than if you would have lied.
“Saving lives” and “death” are not the same things to God as they are to us. So, even in this extreme example, lying is wrong. We should stand up for the truth, even if it kills us.
Peter lied about knowing Christ to save his own life…it was a sin.
Saint Joan of Arc told the truth about her visions, and she was killed.
Mortal life is not greater than truth, even if this seems backwards.
That being said, I would probably personally lie to the Nazis in a hearbeat. However, I am weak, and a sinner…even if I know right from wrong.
Y
yeahmann
Guest
Lying is the uttering of an untruth.
Actually, not all statements with an intent to deceive are lies. The statement itself must be literally not true. Bill Clinton wasn’t trying to save lives but had he been, his statement “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” would have been morally permissible since it’s a literal truth.Actually, that would also be a lie since there’s an intent to deceive. You must be a lawyer.
W
wolfgang
Guest
If you are so concerned about this, why don’t you contact the apologist about it?
L
Luke_K
Guest
What if the Nazi’s said that they’ll search the house for Jews unless you blaspheme the name of Jesus? Does the extraordinary circumstance warrant the blasphemy? NO. Extraordinary circumstance does not warrant lying either.
G.K. Chesterton said, “Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.”
G.K. Chesterton said, “Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.”
R
Rascalking
Guest
There is a huge difference between blaspheming Jesus and telling Nazi’s to move on. If you say, No, and they still enter your house, then you’ve done your best. If they say “Let us in or we will desecrate the Host” that’s very, very different.
I understand your point-I get the slippery slope argument. However, there are varying degrees of the argument.
N
neophyte
Guest
There are those who are not entitled to know the truth, such as the Nazis at the door.
Unfortunately, our present condition is such that we may be forced to choose between two sins: in this case the lesser one of deception, or the greater one of telling the truth and thus enabling someone to be murdered. Under such conditions we do not have full freedom of the will, and thus are not culpable of the sin of deception.
N
neophyte
Guest
Actually, under the definition of the court at the time he made that claim under oath, his statement was indeed a falsehood.
And it was certainly a falsehood under any reasonable definition of the term “sexual relations”.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
For the life of me, I cannot remember the details of this anecdote, so forgive me for bending the truth to fill in the details I have forgotten. 
There was a man who was being chased by the Nazis (or some other such regime) and he came upon a old priest. Noticing a large haystack nearby, the man told the priest not to let the Nazis know where he was hiding and burrowed his way into the hay to hide.
A few moments later, the Nazis came by and asked the old priest if he had seen the man. The old priest replied, “Yes, he’s hiding in that haystack.” The lead Nazi said, in disgust, “Foolish old man” and they continued on their way, not even checking the haystack.
After the Nazis were gone, the man climbed out and was shocked. He asked incredulously, “What were you doing? You could have gotten me killed!” To which the old priest replied, “My son, if the truth could not set you free, how could a lie?”
There was a man who was being chased by the Nazis (or some other such regime) and he came upon a old priest. Noticing a large haystack nearby, the man told the priest not to let the Nazis know where he was hiding and burrowed his way into the hay to hide.
A few moments later, the Nazis came by and asked the old priest if he had seen the man. The old priest replied, “Yes, he’s hiding in that haystack.” The lead Nazi said, in disgust, “Foolish old man” and they continued on their way, not even checking the haystack.
After the Nazis were gone, the man climbed out and was shocked. He asked incredulously, “What were you doing? You could have gotten me killed!” To which the old priest replied, “My son, if the truth could not set you free, how could a lie?”
Y
yeahmann
Guest
Which is why you don’t have to tell them the truth. You may even mislead them. But you can’t lie to them either.
Telling the truth is not a sin even if it has undesirable consequences. You are never forced to choose sin. Under duress, we may have a diminished capacity to form the requisite intent but rarely is the capacity completely depleted. Nobody would say that a bullied boy who kills his classmates has certainly committed no sin.
L
Luke_K
Guest
Why is telling the truth a sin? Does evil has the power to bind us to be responsible for actions we have no hand in committing, such as killing the Jews, unless we commit another sin?
EDIT: I should clarify that telling the truth isn’t the action I’m endorsing, but not saying a truth or lie either way.
R
ruslan
Guest
R
Rascalking
Guest
Perhaps your not getting the big picture (and once again, I’m not trying to pick on you)-you would be enabling the Nazis to kill Jews in that case unless you lie to the Nazis. You would clearly be an accomplice.
R
Rascalking
Guest
LOL! Popcorn rules! May I have some too please?
L
Luke_K
Guest
I understand your point, too. The consequences of a simple lie to murderous men versus letting them kill innocent people seems incomparable.
But I also have a strong conviction against any form of moral relativism that says that sins can become permissible as long as evil makes itself evil enough. That gives Satan power over goodness. All he has to do is make an alternative so disgustingly evil that we’ll do lesser evil in order to avoid it. But evil is evil, all the same.
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
All right, I want to bring some scriptures to bear on this matter.
In 2 Kings 6, Elisha lies to Arameans that God has blinded so that he can capture them all in the City of Samaria.
2 Kings 6
Elisha Traps Blinded Arameans
8 Now the king of Aram was at war with Israel. After conferring with his officers, he said, “I will set up my camp in such and such a place.”
9 The man of God sent word to the king of Israel: “Beware of passing that place, because the Arameans are going down there.” 10 So the king of Israel checked on the place indicated by the man of God. Time and again Elisha warned the king, so that he was on his guard in such places.
11 This enraged the king of Aram. He summoned his officers and demanded of them, “Will you not tell me which of us is on the side of the king of Israel?”
12 “None of us, my lord the king,” said one of his officers, “but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom.”
13 “Go, find out where he is,” the king ordered, “so I can send men and capture him.” The report came back: “He is in Dothan.” 14 Then he sent horses and chariots and a strong force there. They went by night and surrounded the city.
15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh, my lord, what shall we do?” the servant asked.
16 “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”
17 And Elisha prayed, “O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, “Strike these people with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.
19 Elisha told them, “This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for.” And he led them to Samaria.
20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, “LORD, open the eyes of these men so they can see.” Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria.
21 When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, “Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?”
22 “Do not kill them,” he answered. “Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master.” 23 So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel’s territory.
In another scene from the Bible, also an occasion with highly important strategic and military consequences, Rahab lies to her superiors in order to protect the spies she has hidden in her house. The Israelites reward her with hers and her family’s lives, and they alone are spared and declared righteous in the Bible. All because they hid and protected the spies.
Joshua 2
1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute [a] named Rahab and stayed there.
2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
The two above cases of lying were both points where innocent people’s lives were at stake, or where there were high geopolitical and military stakes. Rahab was afterward declared righteous for her actions (James 2:25). The case below is a bit harder to explain, where an archangel lies about his identity and I personally don’t really know why. Though I’m sure God had His reasons.
Tobit 5
11
Tobit asked, “Brother, tell me, please, what family and tribe are you from?”
12
Raphael said: “Why? Do you need a tribe and a family? Or are you looking for a hired man to travel with your son?” Tobit replied, “I wish to know truthfully whose son you are, brother, and what your name is.”
13
Raphael answered, “I am Azariah, son of Hananiah the elder, one of your own kinsmen.”
These cases above do not prove that lying is valid. Indeed, the Scripture says very plainly that all liars shall go to Hell. These passages do certainly appear to indicate that lying can be sometimes valid, though. I think that to explain them, one will have to look at the Catechism as a general principle, but accept the point that was previously made, that the Catechism is speaking of the general but not to every specific case. Such as the Jew being hidden from the Nazis.
In 2 Kings 6, Elisha lies to Arameans that God has blinded so that he can capture them all in the City of Samaria.
2 Kings 6
Elisha Traps Blinded Arameans
8 Now the king of Aram was at war with Israel. After conferring with his officers, he said, “I will set up my camp in such and such a place.”
9 The man of God sent word to the king of Israel: “Beware of passing that place, because the Arameans are going down there.” 10 So the king of Israel checked on the place indicated by the man of God. Time and again Elisha warned the king, so that he was on his guard in such places.
11 This enraged the king of Aram. He summoned his officers and demanded of them, “Will you not tell me which of us is on the side of the king of Israel?”
12 “None of us, my lord the king,” said one of his officers, “but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom.”
13 “Go, find out where he is,” the king ordered, “so I can send men and capture him.” The report came back: “He is in Dothan.” 14 Then he sent horses and chariots and a strong force there. They went by night and surrounded the city.
15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh, my lord, what shall we do?” the servant asked.
16 “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”
17 And Elisha prayed, “O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, “Strike these people with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.
19 Elisha told them, “This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for.” And he led them to Samaria.
20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, “LORD, open the eyes of these men so they can see.” Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria.
21 When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, “Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?”
22 “Do not kill them,” he answered. “Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master.” 23 So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel’s territory.
In another scene from the Bible, also an occasion with highly important strategic and military consequences, Rahab lies to her superiors in order to protect the spies she has hidden in her house. The Israelites reward her with hers and her family’s lives, and they alone are spared and declared righteous in the Bible. All because they hid and protected the spies.
Joshua 2
1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute [a] named Rahab and stayed there.
2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
The two above cases of lying were both points where innocent people’s lives were at stake, or where there were high geopolitical and military stakes. Rahab was afterward declared righteous for her actions (James 2:25). The case below is a bit harder to explain, where an archangel lies about his identity and I personally don’t really know why. Though I’m sure God had His reasons.
Tobit 5
11
Tobit asked, “Brother, tell me, please, what family and tribe are you from?”
12
Raphael said: “Why? Do you need a tribe and a family? Or are you looking for a hired man to travel with your son?” Tobit replied, “I wish to know truthfully whose son you are, brother, and what your name is.”
13
Raphael answered, “I am Azariah, son of Hananiah the elder, one of your own kinsmen.”
These cases above do not prove that lying is valid. Indeed, the Scripture says very plainly that all liars shall go to Hell. These passages do certainly appear to indicate that lying can be sometimes valid, though. I think that to explain them, one will have to look at the Catechism as a general principle, but accept the point that was previously made, that the Catechism is speaking of the general but not to every specific case. Such as the Jew being hidden from the Nazis.
R
Rascalking
Guest
I think you make a great point. Even though I can’t agree (not that my opinion is relevant) I do see your point. Well said.
- Status