Lying Is ALWAYS a Sin

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These cases above do not prove that lying is valid. Indeed, the Scripture says very plainly that all liars shall go to Hell. These passages do certainly appear to indicate that lying can be sometimes valid, though. I think that to explain them, one will have to look at the Catechism as a general principle, but accept the point that was previously made, that the Catechism is speaking of the general but not to every specific case. Such as the Jew being hidden from the Nazis.
The passages only prove that lying is pardonable.

“But, as for that which is written, that God did good to the Hebrew midwives, and to Rahab the harlot of Jericho, this was not because they lied, but because they were merciful to God’s people. That therefore which was rewarded in them was, not their deceit, but their benevolence; benignity of mind, not iniquity of lying.” St. Augustine, Against Lying 32.

St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the Catechism all speak in one voice: Lying is ALWAYS a sin. The posts I linked to in my original post are the first time I’ve heard that the constant and apostolic teachings of the Church don’t apply in extraordinary situations and I think it’s wrong.
 
Ahh, white lies ^____^

For deciding on any action that may have both good and bad effects (for example, protecting Jews from prowling Nazis, or protecting your wife—or is it yourself? 😉 ---- from the reality of the mirror), any good Catholic should always refer to what is called the Principle of Double Effect.

A good definition of this principle can be found here:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia provides four conditions for the application of the principle of double effect:
  1. The act itself must be morally good or at least indifferent.
  2. The agent may not positively will the bad effect but may permit it. If he could attain the good effect without the bad effect he should do so. The bad effect is sometimes said to be indirectly voluntary.
  3. The good effect must flow from the action at least as immediately (in the order of causality, though not necessarily in the order of time) as the bad effect. In other words the good effect must be produced directly by the action, not by the bad effect. Otherwise the agent would be using a bad means to a good end, which is never allowed.
  4. The good effect must be sufficiently desirable to compensate for the allowing of the bad effect (p. 1021).
The conditions provided by Joseph Mangan include the explicit requirement that the bad effect not be intended:
Code:
A person may licitly perform an action that he foresees will produce a good effect and a bad effect provided that four conditions are verified at one and the same time:
Code:
   1. that the action in itself from its very object be good or at least indifferent;
   2. that the good effect and not the evil effect be intended;
   3. that the good effect be not produced by means of the evil effect;
   4. that there be a proportionately grave reason for permitting the evil effect” (1949, p. 43).
Let us now examine a couple of the examples mentioned in this thread. I will use the first definition, the one provided by The New Catholic Encyclopedia.
Classic example is this-Would you lie to a nazi if you where hiding jewish people in your house?
1. Is the act itself morally good or at least indifferent?

If your act is to lie, of course it is not morally good; lying will always be evil. However, your act in this case is to protect the Jews hiding in your house from certain death, not to lie! Therefore the act itself is morally good.

2. Is the evil effect positively willed? Is there no other way to produce the good effect?

I would have to assume that it is not your will to lie, but, being roused out of your home by barking Nazi soldiers armed to the teeth, no one could blame you if at that time you had no choice but to lie.

*3. Does the good effect flow from the action at least as immediately (in the order of causality, though not necessarily in the order of time) as the bad effect? In other words, is the good effect produced directly by the action, not by the bad effect.? *

Yes! Although unfortunately the moment you open your mouth you are lying, at that same moment you are simultaneously protecting the Jews in your home.

4. Is the good effect sufficiently desirable to compensate for the allowing of the bad effect?

Definitely! 🙂

So according to the principle of double effect this instance of lying is not a sin, as it is unavoidable and licit to prevent a more grievous sin.
Then when my wife asks me if her behind looks big in this dress then I guess I will be a sinnin.😦
1. Is the act itself morally good or at least indifferent?

Your act is either (1) to protect yourself from the wrath of your wife, or (2) to protect your wife’s ego. I guess either is at least morally indifferent.

2. Is the evil effect positively willed? Is there no other way to produce the good effect?

Ah, that IS the question, ain’t it? Is there no other way to produce the good effect?

I may not be married yet, but I have a girlfriend for almost 6 years, and I am almost brutally honest about her atire, but I try to be nice about it. And now she trusts me so much about what looks good on her or not that she always consults me whether I like what she’s going to buy or not.

…wait, is that good…?

3. Does the good effect flow from the action at least as immediately (in the order of causality, though not necessarily in the order of time) as the bad effect? In other words, is the good effect produced directly by the action, not by the bad effect.?

Well, yes. From the previous example, the good effect simultaneously flows from the act as the bad effect.

4. Is the good effect sufficiently desirable to compensate for the allowing of the bad effect?

Definitely not, in my opinion, especially when you consider that you may be lessening the trust your wife has in you.

Of course, I may be wrong, as I am not married yet 😃
 
yeahmann, you failed to respond to either the passage involving Raphael or the passage involving Elisha. God cooperated with Elisha against the Arameans through His miracle, allowing Elisha to use the Arameans’ darkness to lie to them and thus guide them into a trap. Would he allow His miracles to be manipulated by evil?

And Raphael, as an Archangel, can never be accused of sin. Yet the passage is explicit that he lied.

As for your reference to Augustine about Rahab, I must say that this is one matter where I disagree with him. He was one of the most brilliant theologians of all time, but I personally believe John Chrysostom and the Greek Fathers had the right of the matter on this particular issue.

St. Augustine can believe some things incorrectly; remember, he also believed all infants are damned unless they are baptized, but the Church now has greatly moved away from that view.

Here’s a quote from “THE GREEK CHURCH FATHERS AND RAHAB,” by H.F. Stander. Page 10.
Rahab and the lie
When the king of Jericho had heard that some of the Israelites had come to
spy out the land, he asked Rahab to bring out the men who had entered her
house. She lied and said: “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know
where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city
gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them
quickly. You may catch up with them” (Joshua 2:4-5). **Not one of the
Greek Church Fathers had a problem with Rahab’s lie. As a matter of fact,
Chrysostom (On repentance MPG 49.331) even calls out “O good lie! O
good guile!” **
Chrysostom praised her for her lie because her lie helped not to betray divine matters (
to preserve piety. Moreover, Chrysostom praised Rahab for the wisdom which she displayed by mixing the truth with the lie. He said that if Rahab told them only a lie,
they would not believe her. Therefore she started with the truth, and
acknowledged the spies did visit her, but then she continued with a lie. And
this helped to confuse the messengers of the King.
Bolds added by me.
 
*3. Does the good effect flow from the action at least as immediately (in the order of causality, though not necessarily in the order of time) as the bad effect? In other words, is the good effect produced directly by the action, not by the bad effect.? *

Yes! Although unfortunately the moment you open your mouth you are lying, at that same moment you are simultaneously protecting the Jews in your home.
The good effect is produced directly from the bad effect. Namely, lying.

Please consider this answer from “Quick Questions”:
Q: A very petite lady could only carry two of her triplets to full term without killing herself and two of them. So she chose to abort one. If she had not, there’d be only one baby with no mother. What should someone do in such a situation?
A: She had another choice, and it is the only right one: She could have chosen to not abort any and put the matter in the Lord’s hands. He is never outdone in generosity. Why is it that we always think of him last? I know of a case in which the doctors removed a cyst the size of a fist which was next to a baby in the womb. Such surgery always causes a spontaneous miscarriage. But the family prayed and put it in God’s hands. Not only was the baby not expelled from the womb, he is now the priest who is answering this question. -Fr. Vincent Serpa
 
The good effect is produced directly from the bad effect. Namely, lying.
blink You know what Luke, I think you are right, and I am wrong. I decided to search in the internet whether the double effect can ever be used on lying can ever be used, and I could not find any example. In fact, I found this:
Lying or intentionally killing an innocent person is never permissible.
I then found this article from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0809fea3.asp

It seems there is no easy answer for this dilemma. 😦
Please consider this answer from “Quick Questions”:
I’m sorry, but I cannot see how the question of the morality of lying relates to your example, Luke. 😦

EDIT: Oh, he never did answer the question. Oh, wow.
 
yeahmann, you failed to respond to either the passage involving Raphael or the passage involving Elisha. God cooperated with Elisha against the Arameans through His miracle, allowing Elisha to use the Arameans’ darkness to lie to them and thus guide them into a trap. Would he allow His miracles to be manipulated by evil?

And Raphael, as an Archangel, can never be accused of sin. Yet the passage is explicit that he lied.

As for your reference to Augustine about Rahab, I must say that this is one matter where I disagree with him. He was one of the most brilliant theologians of all time, but I personally believe John Chrysostom and the Greek Fathers had the right of the matter on this particular issue.

St. Augustine can believe some things incorrectly; remember, he also believed all infants are damned unless they are baptized, but the Church now has greatly moved away from that view.

Here’s a quote from “THE GREEK CHURCH FATHERS AND RAHAB,” by H.F. Stander. Page 10.

Bolds added by me.
Absence of quotes is not evidence one way or another. As for the St. John Chrysostom quote, I’d like to see a longer quote if you can provide it. I could not find the writing cited online.

The Church hasn’t moved far from the position that unbaptized babies don’t got o heaven which is why the Church still requires parents to baptize their children ASAP.
 
yeahmann, you failed to respond to either the passage involving Raphael or the passage involving Elisha. God cooperated with Elisha against the Arameans through His miracle, allowing Elisha to use the Arameans’ darkness to lie to them and thus guide them into a trap. Would he allow His miracles to be manipulated by evil?

And Raphael, as an Archangel, can never be accused of sin. Yet the passage is explicit that he lied.
The passage about Elijah does provide some difficulty for me. I guess he DID bring them to himself like he said he would, but I don’t know about saying that it was the wrong road and city. Maybe it was because that road and city wasn’t his hometown?

Concerning Raphael, I found a thread about that from a while back: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333819 Basically, the story of Tobit is fictional, like the book of Job. In Job, Satan presents himself before God with the other angels, which we now know is theologically impossible, but it served as a useful literary device at the time.
As for your reference to Augustine about Rahab, I must say that this is one matter where I disagree with him. He was one of the most brilliant theologians of all time, but I personally believe John Chrysostom and the Greek Fathers had the right of the matter on this particular issue.
How does that square with what Jesus said on this particular issue? Matthew 6:37 “Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.”

Jesus demands of his disciples a truthfulness that makes oaths unnecessary. What if the Nazi’s persisted after your first lie and asked, “Do you swear that there are no Jews hiding here?”
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nuntym:
I’m sorry, but I cannot see how the question of the morality of lying relates to your example, Luke.
The example dealt with committing one evil deed to prevent a worse evil from occuring. The point is that we have to do what Jesus told us to do- not lie -and put the matter into his hands.
 
I then found this article from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0809fea3.asp

It seems there is no easy answer for this dilemma. 😦
Very interesting article. But it seems the answer is easy. The author seems to hope that there’s a way to justify lying but as he notes, “It remains the case that, despite our instincts, we don’t quite know how to justify deceiving our proverbial thugs, or telling jokes that involve deception, or doing undercover police work, or engaging in military counter-intelligence activities during wartime.”

If you can come up with a coherent justification for lying (as noted double-effect doesn’t work), you are entitled to it. It’s not an easy task. Nevertheless, this teaching on the absolute prohibition against lying requires at least obsequium religiosum. The author of the article went as far as a Catholic is allowed to go.
 
The example dealt with committing one evil deed to prevent a worse evil from occuring. The point is that we have to do what Jesus told us to do- not lie -and put the matter into his hands.
Ah, the maxim “The end cannot ever justify the means.” Gotcha 👍

Anyways, related to the topic, I found a very interesting topic in the old Catholic Encyclopedia: Mental Reservation.

The article states that there are two instances of mental reservation: wide mental reservation and strict mental reservation. Wide mental reservation was defined thus:
If the person inquired for was really at home, but did not wish to see the visitor, the meaning of the phrase “He is not at home” was restricted by the mind of the speaker to this sense, “He is not at home for you, or to see you.” Hence equivocations and amphibologies came to be called mental restrictions or reservations. It was commonly admitted that an equivocal expression need not necessarily be used when the words of the speaker receive a special meaning from the circumstances in which he is placed, or from the position which he holds. Thus, if a confessor is asked about sins made known to him in confession, he should answer “I do not know,” and such words as those when used by a priest mean “I do not know apart from confession,” or “I do not know as man,” or “I have no knowledge of the matter which I can communicate.” (Emphasis mine)
And according to the article, Catholic theologians up to that time were “agreed that when there is good reason, such expressions as the above may be made use of, and that they are not lies” (Emphasis mine). This formulation was first brought up by St. Raymund of Pennafort in 1235 while expounding on the theoretical case that we have been discussing, “when one is asked by murderers bent on taking the life of someone hiding in the house whether he is in.” This doctrine was expounded on by mostly Jesuit theologians. This is the main reason why we have a term called jesuitry for deceptive, ambiguous, or dishonest reasoning.

In strict mental reservation, on the other hand, “the speaker mentally adds some qualification to the words which he utters, and the words together with the mental qualification make a true assertion in accordance with fact.” Now I got lost on the differences between wide and strict mental reservation, but apparently strict mental reservation is condemned by the Church, while wide mental reservation is not.

Now all of this is dependent on St. Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas’ definition of lying, “a statement at variance with the mind.” However, when we use the definition currently found in the Catechism (“To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error”, CCC 2483), then we cannot use this doctrine of mental reservation.

All in all, an interesting and (at least for me) very disturbing read.
 
The passage about Elijah does provide some difficulty for me. I guess he DID bring them to himself like he said he would, but I don’t know about saying that it was the wrong road and city. Maybe it was because that road and city wasn’t his hometown?
They weren’t trying to go to his hometown. The passage definitely indicates Elisha was lying.
Concerning Raphael, I found a thread about that from a while back: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=333819 Basically, the story of Tobit is fictional, like the book of Job.
That is a theory some Catholics hold to. It is far from official Church teaching, and there are many ways in which Catholics have rebutted objections to its historicity.

But even if it was historically fictional, it would be theologically sound. Therefore you would not see Raphael presented as lying in the Word of God if lying is universally wrong.
In Job, Satan presents himself before God with the other angels, which we now know is theologically impossible, but it served as a useful literary device at the time.
Job is not fictional. Satan “presented” himself before Jesus when he tempted Him in the desert. He presented himself again in the Garden of Gethsemane.

The Book of Revelation says he accuses the saints “before God” day and night (Rev. 12:10), a very similar description to his accusations against Job. There are ways in which he can be near God and ways in which he cannot.
How does that square with what Jesus said on this particular issue? Matthew 6:37 “Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.”
Like the Catechism, this is very true as a general principle, but not meant to cover every situation.
Jesus demands of his disciples a truthfulness that makes oaths unnecessary.
Agreed, and we should take that very seriously.
What if the Nazi’s persisted after your first lie and asked, “Do you swear that there are no Jews hiding here?”
I’d lie, just as Rahab lied to save Joshua’s innocent spies. I believe my God would understand and approve.
The example dealt with committing one evil deed to prevent a worse evil from occuring. The point is that we have to do what Jesus told us to do- not lie -and put the matter into his hands.
I don’t believe in doing evil that good might result. St. Paul condemns this and so does reason. However, I don’t believe lying is intrinsically evil any more than is killing a human being into whom God has breathed the breath of life. Killing a human being is very often evil, but not always.

Lying is almost always sinful, but as has been shown, there are cases where it isn’t. At least the Greek Fathers, including John Chrystosome, believed that, and I believe their views are Biblically and morally sound, and reasonable.
 
Thanks for the reading, nuntym.

Seems like wide mental reservation gets us the farthest, though how far we can take wide MR before it turns into strict MR is debatable. At any rate, effective undercover work requires more than mere wide mental reservation and would therefore be impermissible.
 
Lying is almost always sinful, but as has been shown, there are cases where it isn’t. At least the Greek Fathers, including John Chrystosome, believed that, and I believe their views are Biblically and morally sound, and reasonable.
An acceptable hypothesis but doesn’t the magisterial teaching that “lying is always sinful” require obsequium religiosum until such time our bishops instruct us otherwise?
 
Thanks for your posts Lief. I like the examples with Elias and Raphael!
 
Thanks for the reading, nuntym.

Seems like wide mental reservation gets us the farthest, though how far we can take wide MR before it turns into strict MR is debatable. At any rate, effective undercover work requires more than mere wide mental reservation and would therefore be impermissible.
True, true…well, this is a moral conundrum if I ever saw one…

@Lief Erikson

I am so sorry for not reading your posts earlier, but those Biblical stories are very interesting. Thank you very much!
 
I’m not sure I did the right thing in posting what I did. I just read carefully through the Catechism and Catholic Encyclopedia entries, and it appears my opinion is contradicted by official teaching.

I am a good debater, but that doesn’t mean my arguments are always right.

I would like to withdraw my comments. I wish I had been silent. I need to learn more about official Church teaching on this issue, and I will not make such arguments again unless I learn these views are acceptable within the Church.
 
I’m not sure I did the right thing in posting what I did. I just read carefully through the Catechism and Catholic Encyclopedia entries, and it appears my opinion is contradicted by official teaching.

I am a good debater, but that doesn’t mean my arguments are always right.

I would like to withdraw my comments. I wish I had been silent. I need to learn more about official Church teaching on this issue, and I will not make such arguments again unless I learn these views are acceptable within the Church.
Well your posts with thsoe bible passages were still quite interesting. Hopefully none of us will ever find ourselves in any of these extraordinary situations. And if we do, hopefully we will be able to submit to God’s will and do the right thing.
 
Why is telling the truth a sin? Does evil has the power to bind us to be responsible for actions we have no hand in committing, such as killing the Jews, unless we commit another sin?..
In this case, telling the Nazis what they want to know constitutes immediate material cooperation in the evil they are about to commit.
 
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