Lying - Is it Ever Acceptable?

[Anthony_V]

Why? If I can take evil and make something good from it what is the harm? This sounds like the perfect application of evil.

That would be God’s job. We are too fragile when it comes to doing the right thing all the time, so we aren’t particularly reliable for that sort of situation.
You’re logic is right, just not the person (or being, respectively).

 

[lynx]

you as an atheist will think that the will go to nothingness as it will not even matter

Lets look at this comment from a Christian standpoint. On the one hand, you lie to a person, they feel better and pass. If they go to heaven they are infinitely content, and don’t care that you lied. If they go to hell, at least they had a kind word coming their way at the end.

No, this will make thing worse latter. he can probably be convinced through better measures

Maybe, but if you don’t lie to them now they’ll kill themselves today. Are you saying you would take the risk?

very, very selfish

Perhaps, but elaborate

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Thistle-I admire you for thinking this. Honestly though, what do you say to a Nazi who asks the “Are there any Jews here?” What if it was a Nazi looking for Catholic priests instead?

I am JUST asking the question. I mean nothing else.

Lying is not the same as concealing the truth. A lie would be, “nope, no Jews here.” (if there were in fact Jews present). Concealing the truth without lying would be to remain silent, or to say something like “How would I know?”, etc.

 

[onmywayagain]

Heres one. Would you lie to the police if you knew your dad had killed someone in a car accident, just to keep your dad from the just punishment that he deserves?

Lying is never acceptable. Would you tell your child that you will take him/her to the store to buy candy just to shut them up? What if your child asked you when are we going to the store to buy the candy? What then? Would you tell them the truth that you never intended to take them to the store or would you just continue to lie?

 

[Padraig1972]

Even if it means the life of others? What if it were someone you loved for deeply. Would you lie to save their life, or risk their death?

I have answered NO and it doesn`t matter if you make up new twists. Rather martyrdom for the truth than being caught up in lies for eternity.

 

[Rascalking]

Heres one. Would you lie to the police if you knew your dad had killed someone in a car accident, just to keep your dad from the just punishment that he deserves?

I’m not sure if that works. Your dad killed someone in a car accident. Innocent Jewish people have done nothing wrong.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Why? If I can take evil and make something good from it what is the harm? This sounds like the perfect application of evil.

This is exactly what’s wrong with the world, each thinking they know best how to do evil for a good reason. Any evil can be rationalized by any man.

The lack of faith is the source of this kind of thinking, even among people who say they have religious faith. Do we really believe that good will prevail over evil? Apparently we don’t, everytime we think we must fight evil by doing evil. Instead, we ought to have faith in God, that in Him, good always wins out.

If I were an atheist, then I would think that all I have is this life, and then I am worm food. I can see why doing evil for any personal benefit is justifiable, because if I were an atheist, then only this life matters, and I should use any means necessary, even immoral means if needed, to get ahead, be richer, live the life of a prince, squashing whomever I need to in order to make this one and only existence as pleasing to me as possible, even if such a thing may not be so pleasing to others (why should I care what they think?).

I’m not claiming that this is necessarily every atheist’s approach, but I’m saying what I would do if I were an atheist.

Because I am not a an atheist, and in fact I believe in the teachings of Sacred Scripture, I must believe as any Bible-believing Christian ought to believe, that we may not do evil in order that good may be produced from it (cf. Roman 3:8).

 

[lynx]

Lying is sinful when the person is entitled to the information. When someone is not entitled to the information, I believe lying is not a sin. e.g. “No, Mr. Nazi Soldier - there are no Jews hiding in my basement”. Acceptable lie.

It’s a good idea. What makes one entitled? Lets say that my mother-in-law wants me to have a traditional Catholic wedding, and I agree to fake it for her, as per her wishes. Who is entitled to what, who am I hurting, and why are they being hurt?

 

[I_R]

Lets look at this comment from a Christian standpoint. On the one hand, you lie to a person, they feel better and pass. If they go to heaven they are infinitely content, and don’t care that you lied. If they go to hell, at least they had a kind word coming their way at the end.

if they go to hell (out of there own free will) the last thing they will think about is that one “feel good” word. they will still know you lied, making there suffering even worse.

Maybe, but if you don’t lie to them now they’ll kill themselves today. Are you saying you would take the risk?

i hate making assumptions, but im going to assume you are not a professional shrink or operator at a suicide hot line. they way its actually handed is not how you see it when giving the example

Perhaps, but elaborate

so, you would lie to your significant other just for your own selfish lust for them.

 

[onmywayagain]

I’m not sure if that works. Your dad killed someone in a car accident. Innocent Jewish people have done nothing wrong.

Why not? Would you lie to the police or would you tell them where your dad was hiding? It is a more realistic example than your Nazi one.

 

[Rascalking]

Why not? Would you lie to the police or would you tell them where your dad was hiding? It is a more realistic example than your Nazi one.

Your father did something wrong. What did a Jewish person do wrong?

 

[onmywayagain]

It’s a good idea. What makes one entitled? Lets say that my mother-in-law wants me to have a traditional Catholic wedding, and I agree to fake it for her, as per her wishes. Who is entitled to what, who am I hurting, and why are they being hurt?

Who would it hurt?? Your mother-in-law would be hurt. If your heart is not in the right place then why even fake it anyways? Just tell her no and stick by your words. You are that one getting married and if you don’t want a traditional Catholic wedding then don’t have one. Don’t even fake it. It would be disrespectful not just your mother-in-law but to every Catholic and the Catholic Church.

 

[lynx]

For an atheist, all they think they have is this life, and then they are worm food. I can see why doing evil for any personal benefit is justifiable,

What about altruistic benefit, or do you believe we only act within out own self interests?

because if I were an atheist, then only this life matter, and I should use any means necessary, even immoral means if needed, to get ahead, be richer, live the life of a prince, squashing whomever I need to in order to make this one and only existence as pleasing to me as possible, even if such a thing may not be so pleasing to others.

One can be atheist and still live to a moral code. I personally don’t get ahead by crushing relationships, I get ahead by making them. My goal is not to be rich, or live the life a king, merely to be content and make the best use of time I have. I would not, for example, murder my boss so I could take his position.

I’m not claiming that this is necessarily the atheist approach, but I’m saying what I would do if I were an atheist.

I’m glad you found religion…

Because I am not a an atheist, and in fact I believe in the teachings of Sacred Scripture, I must believe as any Bible-believing Christian ought to believe, that we may not do evil in order that good may be produced from it (cf. Roman 3:8).

So your entire justification for not using evil as a tool for good is because the bible said so?

 

[RosaryFan]

Ive been pondering this topic as well.

From an objective point of view, lying is negative…regardless of consequences. Even in the act of so-called “white-lies”. White-lies are still lies. From a logical perspective, a lie is lie. It doesnt matter why one does it, it matters not the justification, as for reasons being as they are, the fact is one still did it. Same as whether you steal one dollar,…or one million dollars. Circumstances make no difference. The fact is you still committed theft. The same logic pattern applies here as well.

Yet, we still contradict ourselves. There are many examples of this. Humanity is flawed. We say its wrong. Yet, we still do it to advance ourselves. Not only do we lie to others, we lie to ourselves as well. We term this “Justification”, as it weighs less on the conscience than “Lying”.

There is a book I am reading at present called, “Bending the Rules: The flexibility of absolutes in modern life” by Robert A. Hinde

It discusses reasons of justification and why we tend to “bend the rules” even for the greater good. It also deals in what thought process and psychological reactions guide this process. It is rather interesting. That book may help to clarify things.

If you are lying to someone because they are not entitled to the information, such as the Nazi example I said above, then that is not sinful. Same goes for if someone is searching for gossip material and they start asking you questions, such as “Hey, I heard Mr. & Mrs. So-and-So are getting a divorce. Is it true?” And you say, “I have no idea” because they are not entitled to this information and they only want to obtain this information for sinful reasons (gossip). That is an acceptable lie and is not sinful.

You have to understand that some rules have exceptions. Lying is not intrinsically evil like, say, abortion. There can be valid reasons for not being honest.

 

[lynx]

Who would it hurt??

Yes that is my question, which is more of a probing philosophical question than something I don’t know (ie debate purposes).

Your mother-in-law would be hurt. If your heart is not in the right place then why even fake it anyways?

I would do it to make her happy.

Just tell her no and stick by your words. You are that one getting married and if you don’t want a traditional Catholic wedding then don’t have one. Don’t even fake it. It would be disrespectful not just your mother-in-law but to every Catholic and the Catholic Church.

If I were getting married, which I am , I really wouldn’t care what kind of ceremony it is. The song and dance would be for my parents and my fiance’s parents. I think the biggest issue, at least on this forum, is what does this mean to the church and other Catholics. Assuming my fiance, and her parents, wanted a Catholic wedding what are my options? On a personal note, my fiance wants to get married in a church, so that’s definitely happening.

 

[RosaryFan]

It’s a good idea. What makes one entitled? Lets say that my mother-in-law wants me to have a traditional Catholic wedding, and I agree to fake it for her, as per her wishes. Who is entitled to what, who am I hurting, and why are they being hurt?

I think anyone with a little common sense would be able to discern whether or not someone is entitled to certain information. For example, is your next-door-neighbor entitled to know what size boxers your husband wears? But they are entitled to know whether or not you will be having a party with a loud band playing in the back yard until 3am next weekend.

And if the chashier at the supermarket asks if you have some filets in your coat pocket, she is entitled to know whether or not you do. However, if the cashier asks you how many cavities you’ve had in your lifetime, she is not really entitled to that information.

Of course you could always say “None of your *%@#! business!”, but I dare you to say that to the Nazi knocking on your door for the Jews hiding in your basement!

You see? Just a little bit of common sense. That’s all you really need.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

So your entire justification for not using evil as a tool for good is because the bible said so?

Shocking, isn’t it? You do know that this is a Catholic forum, right? And you posted your question in a “theology” section, right? Were you expecting a non-theology answer? We believe in the Bible here, or at least we are supposed to.

 

[VonDerTann]

We live in a harsh cold world, one where bad people do bad things to the innocent.

Morality is often very complex. Saying things like “never lie, under any circumstances!” betrays a lack of understanding of the complexities of life and, in my opinion, comes so dangerously close to foolhardiness that you may endanger the lives of those around you (read on!)

That said, lying/deception in my opinion is often morally necessary, let alone acceptable:

1. Police lie to suspects all the time, and courts allow them to do so. Police claim to possess evidence to elicit confessions from suspects.
2. Military intellience members lie, or disseminate false information, to confuse adversaries, smoke out threats to national security, etc. Spies lie, plant false information, etc.
3. You have a 16 year old daughter. There is a knock at the door late at night. It’s a stalker who you know is bad news and he’s also half drunk. He says, “is daughter at home?” Are you going to say, “why do you ask?” No, you will – and should – say “no.”
4. Stalker from #3 is in your house, and has pulled a knife. He says “bring me your money.” You hand him your wallet. He says, “anything else?” Are you really telling me I am sinning when I sa “no” and fail to disclose the safe upstairs with my life savings inside it? Some will say “SIN!” …and I will say “you’re wrong, since knifeman has no right to know.”

A bit closer to home: Does anyone have kids? Have you ever said to them that Santa exists?

 

[mosher]

1 Peter 2:16:

Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God.

1 Peter 3:9-12:

Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. For “He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; let him turn away from evil and do right; let him spek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.”

Colossians 3:9-10:

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

No, a lie is an objective evil. No evils of this character can ever be accounted as good no matter the circumstances.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t know, I haven’t been there, but I suspect if it would help them find peace I would. My intent is to focus on the result, and not the implied morality of the action. My implicit question being if a lie does more good than harm do the ends justify the means?

The problem with this instance is that the “result” is actually eternal.

The important issue is not whether someone “is at peace” in the moment of death – nobody will be; but rather whether they find peace in the other life. So if you mean that your lie would hide someone’s impending death from them, that is very, very bad, since you are depriving them of a last chance of repentance that they may badly need.

If however, the “lie” was about something like a relationship (which would be ending anyway) in order to save them some needless anguish at the end, that MIGHT be acceptable. Some moral purists might say it would never be.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.