Lying - Is it Ever Acceptable?

[FNDRB58]

Lying is a sin, period. That being said, like any sin, your knowledge, your consent, and the situational circumstances determine how badly you are on the hook. Lying to extort someone from their money, resulting in them losing their home and living on the streets is far worse than telling a lie to protect your life or the life of others.

My priest gave me the acronym STOP. Situation, Think Others, Pray. When trying to decide if something is a sin, consider the situation, think and consider the consequences, think about all of the choices and try to determine which is the less of 2 evils. Talk to others, friends, a priest and pray about it.

An example is lying to save someones life. You have 2 choices there, lie and save a life, or tell the truth and have someone killed. Neither one is desirable, but lying in this case would be the less evil of the two choices. I’m sure that God will understand the reasons behind your choice to lie. It wasn’t to do harm, it was to save someone. While lying in this situation is probably just a venial sin, if there was any question you may want to poke into confession, just to be safe.

God would not put you in a situation where you only have to choose a greater evil or a lesser evil. In the case of lying to Nazis who are trying to murder your “guests” there would be no culpability… As I said in my previous post, if someone, in good conscience, believes that saving lives by lying to murderers is the right thing to do then he would not meet the requirements of having sinned. You have to know it is a sin to be culpable. The desire to thwart the murder of an innocent child of God at no ones expense would preclude such knowledge.

And why do you believe that “lying is a sin, period?” You will have to give some reasons that support your assertion.

 

[FNDRB58]

My presumption is that we should not be looking for an infallible teaching. That is not what the charism of infallibility is used for. It is not the moral and theological “answers in the back of the book.” My other presumption is that Aquinas is the "go to’ theologian for ethical debate. In the Church we usually begin with Aquinas and then work our way from there. Why? Simply because the Church consistently confirms his teachings in Magisterial form and also he is the foundation for all theological and philosophical education in the Church. Thus, to simply disagree with Aquinas is not sufficient of an argument because he doesn’t have an equal weight to other thinkers.

I would have to carefully look at the various authors you mention to comment. I can say that both Peter Kreeft’s and Janet Smith’s recent articles on the subject are quite poor examples of their own work. Janet Smith misapplies Thomistic and Aristotelian principles and Peter Kreeft makes an emotivist argument contrary to his own methodology. I haven’t seem any other significant contemporary Catholic theologians other than these two argue in favor of lying as a good.

Well, with all due respect to our beloved St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church existed long before him. That we start with him in ethical debate and move on is specious to say the least. St. Augustine is also a prominent Catholic that the Church looks to but he made errors too.

Not simply an opinion. It is an informed and certain opinion that can be substantially justified. When it comes to helping people determine what is a right or wrong action opinion is not sufficient.

I think I and others have shown plausible justification for lying to murderers out of love for our brothers in Christ who face certain death. Whether it is substantial or not is, well…your opinion.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And why do you believe that “lying is a sin, period?” You will have to give some reasons that support your assertion.

I’d say that lying is a sin, which puts us on the crosses next to the “good” and “bad” thieves, isn’t that about right?

I think that lying isn’t about words, because each person’s experience shapes how words “strike” them regardless of their dictionary meanings. It’s about attempt to deceive for evil motives. So I think I can concede that it’s always a sin if there is a way such that sin can be removed and return us back to God.

Alan

 

[wcknight]

I would say lying in certain situations is no sin at all.

In the case of lying to save a life there is no culpability. The intent is certainly good, and it would prevent a much greater evil.

Also in the case where a doctor may have to tell a patient or family member that the situation is much better or much worse than it is, there may be no sin as well. For example, if someone is in a serious car accident, telling them that they are near death or may be in danger of dying may tramatize them even further. We know that a positive attitude is very helpful to survival. So to maximize the chances of survival, it may be necessary to not detail the facts as they really are.

I think in some areas, each situation has to be evaluated for intent and the greater good, or prevention of a greater evil.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

?. For example, if someone is in a serious car accident, telling them that they are near death or may be in danger of dying may tramatize them even further. We know that a positive attitude is very helpful to survival. So to maximize the chances of survival, it may be necessary to not detail the facts as they really are…

I think that is a bad example. In the case of lying to Nazis, it is not the fact that your are saving lives that makes the lie OK. It is the fact that the Nazis do not have the right to know what they are asking for. But in the case of a doctor lying to a patient, the patient really does have the right to know his own condition. And it is only an educated guess that says that knowledge is bad for him. Maybe such knowledge will lead him to make a good confession before he dies. Maybe the worry that he is being lied to is worse for him than the truth, as dismall as it might be. So be very careful which lies you excuse.

 

[wcknight]

I think that is a bad example. In the case of lying to Nazis, it is not the fact that your are saving lives that makes the lie OK. It is the fact that the Nazis do not have the right to know what they are asking for. But in the case of a doctor lying to a patient, the patient really does have the right to know his own condition. And it is only an educated guess that says that knowledge is bad for him. Maybe such knowledge will lead him to make a good confession before he dies. Maybe the worry that he is being lied to is worse for him than the truth, as dismall as it might be. So be very careful which lies you excuse.

Good point about the last confession part… but I would still say in some instances there would be no culpability in telling a lie if the greater good is better served.

 

[FNDRB58]

I’d say that lying is a sin, which puts us on the crosses next to the “good” and “bad” thieves, isn’t that about right?

I think that lying isn’t about words, because each person’s experience shapes how words “strike” them regardless of their dictionary meanings. It’s about attempt to deceive for evil motives. So I think I can concede that it’s always a sin if there is a way such that sin can be removed and return us back to God.

Alan

Again, we have to get to the definition of lying. Lying by religious definition connotes the sinful telling of an untruth. The question is if there is a telling of an untruth that is not considered a lie, ergo, not sinful? I assert that there are situations where the telling of an untruth is warranted as in the Nazi example. I have yet to hear any arguments that change my thinking on this.

We lie to our children when we tell them their painting is good when in fact it is not.
A police officer undercover lies to a drug dealer for the greater good of society.
A daughter tells her sick stubborn grandmother that what she is taking is not medicated when in fact it is in order to save her life.
A father lies to a murderer to save his daughters life.

All of these examples use common sense. And none of them are done at the others expense, to create selfish gain, nor do they destroy the moral good or compromise justice. Love and justice are at work here. To ignore that in order that we be absolutists for truth is taking it completely out of context.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you all for participating in this thread with me. I have nothing more to say on this issue. Have a nice day.

Alan

 

[Foreigner]

If lying to a killer would save your own life would you do it?
If lying would give comfort to a dying friend would you give it?
If lying would convince a suicidal man to live one more day would you tell it?
If lying would save a relationship with the person you loved would you lie to their face?
When, if ever, would you lie, and where do you draw the line?

Recently, I was speaking with someone who says they would not lie under any circumstance. I can honestly see some good reasons to lie and I personally would lie if given most of the above scenarios. At the very least, I feel the saving of a life is a worth a lie.

Lying is only acceptable when it is the most moral alternative.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lying is only acceptable when it is the most moral alternative.

:tiphat:

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

Do not worry about lying. Nobody has to worry about lying. Unless you are using lies to destroy someone’s reputation, or to hurt someone in a fundamentally evil (life-shattering) way, there is no mortal sin in lying. It is absurd to even consider this in any other way.

I find that people often become overly worried about lying after reading harsh, rigid Catholic books. Such books often paint nearly everything as a sin. The tiniest white lie could send you straight to Hell. Any falsehood whatsoever demands eternal retribution.

This is a ridiculous viewpoint. More than ridiculous. It is quite evil. Most lying does not even fall into the realm of mortal sin in any way whatsoever. Saying that something is a mortal sin, when it is not, IS ITSELF a mortal sin. Such a thing will only end up scaring people of good conscience for absolutely no reason at all.

The Catechism, for example, can seem (at times) a little forbidding on the subject of lying - little better than an ironclad rulebook. The usual “Don’t do this. Don’t do that. This is sin. That is forbidden.”

This, of course, is not how the Catechism is to be understood - but that doesn’t stop plenty of overly-scrupulous Catholics with an unhealthy sense of sin from throwing the Catechism in the faces of anyone who wonders, quite naturally, if lying is really always a mortal sin.

I spoke to a Vatican Catechist Professor a few years ago. He said very specifically that there is an awful lot of flexibility in the Catechism, as well as in Church Canon Law. Most of it cannot be taken exactly as written.

For instance, the section of the Catechism that forbids lying sounds really ironclad. But it’s not. Children lie all the time. It’s not a mortal sin. Adults lie often. But it’s often not a mortal sin in any way. Lying can usually be very trivial. But the way some versions of the Catechism put it, it doesn’t sound trivial at all. It can sound like a mortal sin, even though it doesn’t say that. Just keep in mind that this is not how the Catechism is to be taken – as some kind of fearsome rulebook. It is mostly common sense.

Even the Ten Commandments make no sense if one believes that ALL (or even most) lying is sinful.

Is it wrong to lie to prevent a murder? Is it wrong to lie to prevent someone from committing adultery? Is it wrong to lie to prevent a theft?

If you take the prohibition against lying as some kind of rigid rule, all kinds of contradictions become possible. Someone who does not lie to prevent a murder would surely be guilty of mortal sin. For murder is certainly worse than lying. Lying in this case, would be the morally right thing to do.

And if one can prevent another from committing adultery by lying, it would be morally wrong not to lie. For committing adultery is certainly worse than lying.

And if someone can prevent a theft by lying, it would also be immoral not to lie here, too. A lie told in such a case would likely be a very good and moral thing.

Incidentally, breaking the Commandments is not automatically mortal sin. Some Catholics seem to think that it is, and this is very sad. It shows a profound lack of moral logic and understanding. For as we have seen, it is possible to break the Commandments in many different ways, without ever committing any sort of mortal sin.

And lying, by itself, so long as it is not in a truly Grave matter, is never mortally sinful. Anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong. Lying can be a source of humor. It can be funny. Comedians sometimes tell outrageous lies to mislead their audiences. Especially when we know it is a lie, it can make us laugh. And even when we don’t, it can still be funny.

Anyone who does not see it this way has serious problems in their moral reasoning. They are most likely scrupulous, and suffer from an unhealthy conscience. Such people should be gently corrected with the truth, before they can spread their bad reasoning to others. It is all too easy for Catholics to become worried about their salvation over something as harmless as having told a lie. For example, I myself have told many simple lies in the past that have helped people feel better about themselves when they simply needed to feel better.There is no sin in such a thing at all. Only kindness.

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

Oh, incidentally, I did not mean that I have lied to anyone on this site. Catholics go here for accuracy. I do my absolute best to provide it. There is enough confusion surrounding Catholic belief as it is. I am certainly not going to add to it.

I was simply talking about people in my own life who needed a boost in their spirits. For instance, I lady I know was feeling bad about how she looked. She had stayed up late and was very tired. And although I thought that she certainly didn’t look her best, it would have hurt her feelings if I had said so. So I told her she looked great. She felt much better. And she actually did start to look a bit better, feeling this way. So my little lie did a great amount of good.

The Catholic Church does not officially teach that all lying is mortally sinful. The Catechism does not. The Vatican does not. Canon Law does not. Nor does any papal documentation or encyclical. Anyone who says otherwise is flatly wrong. I would hope nobody will worry about this at all.

 

[curtish1947]

Hi,

Tersely, my life experiences with lies and the subject of lying.

I stopped teasing, for good reasons. I became an oddity to just about everyone. Soon, in three months time, I could not understand the true meaning of even news programs on TV, without doing a lot of work. Then the work was too much to do.

I persisted. I found that the definition of the thing we call teasing is: Telling a lie to tell a truth.

I was asked to start teasing again. I would not. My priest in confession, more than once, said teasing is not a sin.

Eventually I started again. Although, I sometimes would like to revert, everyone almost, likes the teasing as compliments.

I relent without understanding this.

Now, I understand everyone again.

The questions left for me, is what did God mean by not lying? Is it not to injure? Is it not to bear false witness against someone for their potential harm? What did He mean? What does He mean??? ((In second Kings (((I think))) why did God allow a lying spirit to tell a lie for Him, God???))

Jesus is Lord of The Sabbath. He can make and change the rules. Are the rules different for Our Good God, than us? He Is Good.

…Curt…

 

[caoindealbhan]

You are right, our society is filled with “required lying.” Your hat is just beautiful! The dinner you fixed, why of course, it was delicious!

No one is interested in the truth in these instances. What they want is appreciation for their ability to buy a hat or cook a meal.

I make a point of telling the truth more to people I know and love. I want them to truly know me, not some made up notion of myself to please them. They need to know how I think, and what I want and need.

In instructing children I answer honestly when asked a question on anything.

The dying are a special group. Their comfort outweighs any truth. They need loving comfort as death approaches.

 

[Rock_Happy]

You are right, our society is filled with “required lying.” Your hat is just beautiful! The dinner you fixed, why of course, it was delicious!

No one is interested in the truth in these instances. What they want is appreciation for their ability to buy a hat or cook a meal.

I make a point of telling the truth more to people I know and love. I want them to truly know me, not some made up notion of myself to please them. They need to know how I think, and what I want and need.

In instructing children I answer honestly when asked a question on anything.

The dying are a special group. Their comfort outweighs any truth. They need loving comfort as death approaches.

It is hard to imagine a circumstance where lying is required. For example: “I like very much the way that dress looks on you.” or, “I find this meal to be very delicious” Those statements can be true even if the dress is hideous, and the meal is made by someone just learning to cook. One rare potential circumstance that comes to mind might be for a military person who has been captured and is being tortured. Intentional lying to misdirect the enemy, and to avoid further torture seems a higher moral good to me.

 

[caoindealbhan]

OK, you don’t like the word required. Let’s say what is socially expected. Go tell your Aunt Bertha how beautiful her new hairdo is! (In reality it looks that some tornado beehive). You want to make your parents happy and you want your Aunt’s appreciation for knowing how to act socially.

Another great one is my Mother asked my Father how was the dinner(first married). He said, “It was delicious!”

“No, Ray. Seriously, I want to know how it was?”

“Well, it was a little under-cooked and there was too much salt for my liking.”

“If you don’t like my cooking, you can go and cook your own dinner!!!”

For some reason, anytime my father was ever asked for his critique of Mother’s cooking, it was always that the dinner was great!!!

 

[FNDRB58]

I got one for you that just happened yesterday…

My 90 year old great aunt had hip surgery a week ago. She is very frail. My 88 year old father who is her nephew had a heart attack days ago. They are very close, almost like brother and sister. While laying in her hospital bed she asked how my dad was and why he didn’t come visit her today. Should I tell this frail woman that her adoring nephew just had a heart attack? That might have killed her on the spot! So no, when speaking of lies I am certain God wants us to use common sense. As long as there is no harm done to anyone or any greedy result comes from it, there are indeed times when lying is the proper course of action.

 

[Rock_Happy]

I got one for you that just happened yesterday…

My 90 year old great aunt had hip surgery a week ago. She is very frail. My 88 year old father who is her nephew had a heart attack days ago. They are very close, almost like brother and sister. While laying in her hospital bed she asked how my dad was and why he didn’t come visit her today. Should I tell this frail woman that her adoring nephew just had a heart attack? That might have killed her on the spot! So no, when speaking of lies I am certain God wants us to use common sense. As long as there is no harm done to anyone or any greedy result comes from it, there are indeed times when lying is the proper course of action.

Are you saying that a person who lived through the Great Depression, and WW2, and probably had plenty of personal loss would be killed by some sad news?

 

[06convert]

God would not put you in a situation where you only have to choose a greater evil or a lesser evil. In the case of lying to Nazis who are trying to murder your “guests” there would be no culpability… As I said in my previous post, if someone, in good conscience, believes that saving lives by lying to murderers is the right thing to do then he would not meet the requirements of having sinned. You have to know it is a sin to be culpable. The desire to thwart the murder of an innocent child of God at no ones expense would preclude such knowledge.

And why do you believe that “lying is a sin, period?” You will have to give some reasons that support your assertion.

You’re right. God doesn’t put us in those situations. The sinfulness of human beings and the broken nature of our world puts us in those situations. They are very real. What about a co-worker that you care about wants you to lie for him so that he doesn’t get fired? What would be the greater evil of those choices?

As for it being a sin, period. The reasons are numerous. Culpability is reduced in certain situations, but the sinful nature of lying is not removed. Why do I believe it? Because God and the Church say so. Here are the reasons you ask for.

CCC:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).

2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

 

[JL2011]

Well, here’s my situation:

I committed a grave sin. That sin made me tell a lie (just great, another sin). I confessed both committing the grave sin and the lying. My question is, what is the correct meaning for the word “repent” in this case: Should I tell the truth to the person I lied to, even if it was a long time ago and it did absolutely no harm to him at all? I surely don’t want to lie again, but if I was in that same situation again (don’t think I’ll ever be) I’m not sure if I would lie just like I already did. This is what makes me wonder if I really repented or not.