Lying to Promote Good

[Valke2]

THe King of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the first was Shifrah and the name of the second was Puah – and he said, "When you deliver the Hebrew women, and you see them on the birthstool; if it is a son, you are to kill him… But the midwives feared God and they did not do as the king of Egypt spoke to them and they caused the boys to live.

The King of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, that you have cause the boys to live!”

The midwives said to Pharoah, “Because the Hebrew women are unlike the Egyptian women, for they are experts; before the midwife comes to them, they have given birth.”

God benefitted the midwifes – and the people increased and became very strong. ANd it was because the midwives feared God that He made them houses.
Ex. 1:15-20

Couple of comments on this:
First, although my translation has the midwives as being Hebrew, I know other translations do not and in fact Judaism often teaches that the midwives were righteous non-Hebrews.

But the thing I wanted to focus on was that the midwives lie to save a people and God rewards them (a. if we are to believe they were Jews, by allowing the Jewish people to flourish; and b. by giving them “houses.”

Here we have the first biblical example of civil disobedience and what would seem to be biblical support for lying under certain circumstances (i.e., Anne Frank’s safety).

Comments? Thoughts?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Lying could never promote any good. Only truth could promote good, that is the reason that GodAllahYHWH always chose truthful people as ProphetsMessengers for promoting good.
This is well established in Quran:

Quran
[19:52] And relate the story of Moses as mentioned in the Book. He was, indeed, a chosen one; and he was a Messenger, a Prophet.
[19:53] And We called him from the right side of the Mount and We made him draw near to US for special communion.
[19:54] And We bestowed upon him, out of Our mercy, his brother Aaron whom We made a Prophet.
[19:55] And relate the story of Ishmael as mentioned in the Book. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet.
[19:56] He used to enjoin Prayer and alms-giving on his people, and he was well pleasing to his Lord.
[19:57] And relate the story of Idris as mentioned in the Book. He was a truthful man and a Prophet.
[19:58] And We exalted him to a lofty station.
[19:59] These are the people upon whom Allah bestowed His blessings from among the Prophets of the posterity of Adam, and of the posterity of those whom We carried in the Ark with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel; and they are of those whom We guided and chose. When the Signs of the Gracious God were recited unto them, they fell down, prostrating themselves before Allah and weeping.
[19:60] Then there came after them an evil generation who neglected Prayer, and followed their evil desires. So they will meet destruction.
Unquote
Thanks

 

[meedo]

THe King of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the first was Shifrah and the name of the second was Puah – and he said, "When you deliver the Hebrew women, and you see them on the birthstool; if it is a son, you are to kill him… But the midwives feared God and they did not do as the king of Egypt spoke to them and they caused the boys to live.

The King of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, that you have cause the boys to live!”

The midwives said to Pharoah, “Because the Hebrew women are unlike the Egyptian women, for they are experts; before the midwife comes to them, they have given birth.”

God benefitted the midwifes – and the people increased and became very strong. ANd it was because the midwives feared God that He made them houses.
Ex. 1:15-20

Couple of comments on this:
First, although my translation has the midwives as being Hebrew, I know other translations do not and in fact Judaism often teaches that the midwives were righteous non-Hebrews.

But the thing I wanted to focus on was that the midwives lie to save a people and God rewards them (a. if we are to believe they were Jews, by allowing the Jewish people to flourish; and b. by giving them “houses.”

Here we have the first biblical example of civil disobedience and what would seem to be biblical support for lying under certain circumstances (i.e., Anne Frank’s safety).

Comments? Thoughts?

Pharough was a murderer . He asked the Midwives to Commit grave sin. He was at war with the believers ( wanting to exterminate them) . According to Islam it is lawful for them to lie to him to save these lives . Ideally they should not utter lie ( by forexample getting the husbands or the men of these pregnant women to be around and then claiming that they feared their lives from the husbands , thats just an examople of how you dont klie and forbid eveil from happening)

Pharough was always an enemy of the believers and he commanded sin. No human should obey a creature terough the disobediance of the creator. He wasnt doing a business deal with them , he wasnt making life slightly hard , he was simply exterminating them! What they did was not lying to promiote God. they lied to save lives from murder.

However they could on teh other hand refuse bluntly , like the sourcerers refused to follow Pharough after moses won teh contest against them . Yes they were crucified tio the trees bu t they were martyrs.

salam

 

[Valke2]

Pharough was a murderer . He asked the Midwives to Commit grave sin. He was at war with the believers ( wanting to exterminate them) . According to Islam it is lawful for them to lie to him to save these lives . Ideally they should not utter lie ( by forexample getting the husbands or the men of these pregnant women to be around and then claiming that they feared their lives from the husbands , thats just an examople of how you dont klie and forbid eveil from happening)

Pharough was always an enemy of the believers and he commanded sin. No human should obey a creature terough the disobediance of the creator. He wasnt doing a business deal with them , he wasnt making life slightly hard , he was simply exterminating them! What they did was not lying to promiote God. they lied to save lives from murder.

However they could on teh other hand refuse bluntly , like the sourcerers refused to follow Pharough after moses won teh contest against them . Yes they were crucified tio the trees bu t they were martyrs.

salam

They could have refused and been killed, but then they would have done no good. By lying they saved the Jewish people. Moreover, at least according to our scripture, God rewards this action.

 

[PaulDupre]

All of the examples given thus far depict lying to protect the innocent from evil. That has always been allowed under Judaism and Christianity.

The commandment says “Do not bear false witness against your neighbor”. That connotes some malice against one’s neighbor. That malice is of itself sinful.

To bear false witness in defense of one’s innocent neighbor shows an heroic concern for the welfare of one’s neighbor, and is not a violation of any commandment I am aware of.

God bless,
Paul

 

[notself]

What is strange about the story is the protection of the males. If one wants to increase the population in a polygamous society, one protects the females because so few males are needed.

Now if the purpose is to keep the number of males down, so as to avoid rebellion when they grow up, then that makes sense.

The thing that is quite common throughout the Old Testament is that the Commandments are not really commandments so much as they are guidelines that are not always followed. Truth, sexual morality, murder are all relative. Sometimes truth is rewarded, sometimes a lie brings reward. Sometimes adultery is punished, sometimes it is ignored.

It is quite a lesson in schizophrenia.

 

[Valke2]

All of the examples given thus far depict lying to protect the innocent from evil. That has always been allowed under Judaism and Christianity.

The commandment says “Do not bear false witness against your neighbor”. That connotes some malice against one’s neighbor. That malice is of itself sinful.

To bear false witness in defense of one’s innocent neighbor shows an heroic concern for the welfare of one’s neighbor, and is not a violation of any commandment I am aware of.

God bless,
Paul

Thank you. That makes a great deal of sense and is basically what I thought christianity taught. Especially as there are many examples of Christians doing exactly this in order to protect others. I had read some posts in other threads that disputed the rationale that lying could ever be justified.

 

[Valke2]

What is strange about the story is the protection of the males. If one wants to increase the population in a polygamous society, one protects the females because so few males are needed.

Now if the purpose is to keep the number of males down, so as to avoid rebellion when they grow up, then that makes sense.

The thing that is quite common throughout the Old Testament is that the Commandments are not really commandments so much as they are guidelines that are not always followed. Truth, sexual morality, murder are all relative. Sometimes truth is rewarded, sometimes a lie brings reward. Sometimes adultery is punished, sometimes it is ignored.

It is quite a lesson in schizophrenia.

No it isn’t. Yes it is.

 

[ralphinal]

I think another poster hit on it: intent. What about the story of Jerico? There was a lie told that helped the Children of Isreal there, too. Then at times when the lie was told for selfish reasons in the Bible, there was punishment from God.

 

[notself]

I think another poster hit on it: intent. What about the story of Jerico? There was a lie told that helped the Children of Isreal there, too. Then at times when the lie was told for selfish reasons in the Bible, there was punishment from God.

As I said, the commandments are relative to conditions.

 

[swariffin]

I think another poster hit on it: intent. What about the story of Jerico? There was a lie told that helped the Children of Isreal there, too. Then at times when the lie was told for selfish reasons in the Bible, there was punishment from God.

That is why the Christian believe in the New Testament. In the NT,
the true teaching of God is revealed in more understandable way by human standard. In the OT, it was God spoke to the people through other person whom we called as prophets. In the NT, God speaks directly to human face to face, using the humanly language, and even giving examples. If you compare the teaching of God as a sort of a picture, The NT is the picture, while the OT is the frame. The OT talks about how people struggle living in sins but still have a hope of salvation. The NT talks about the answer and the promised salvation.

 

[MH84]

THe King of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the first was Shifrah and the name of the second was Puah – and he said, "When you deliver the Hebrew women, and you see them on the birthstool; if it is a son, you are to kill him… But the midwives feared God and they did not do as the king of Egypt spoke to them and they caused the boys to live.

The King of Egypt summoned the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, that you have cause the boys to live!”

The midwives said to Pharoah, “Because the Hebrew women are unlike the Egyptian women, for they are experts; before the midwife comes to them, they have given birth.”

God benefitted the midwifes – and the people increased and became very strong. ANd it was because the midwives feared God that He made them houses.
Ex. 1:15-20

Couple of comments on this:
First, although my translation has the midwives as being Hebrew, I know other translations do not and in fact Judaism often teaches that the midwives were righteous non-Hebrews.

But the thing I wanted to focus on was that the midwives lie to save a people and God rewards them (a. if we are to believe they were Jews, by allowing the Jewish people to flourish; and b. by giving them “houses.”

Here we have the first biblical example of civil disobedience and what would seem to be biblical support for lying under certain circumstances (i.e., Anne Frank’s safety).

Comments? Thoughts?

Valke2, it could be something to do with the Ten Commandments not being given to Moses and the Israelites yet.

God rewarded their actions because they did the best they could in the circumstances.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

clearly she had to lie to those searching for the spies.

It depends of motives and situation. It is prooper for example to lie to save a life.