Lying is always wrong, CCC.False.
CCC
By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.
Lying is the most direct offense against the truth.
By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.
It’s not their business what I have in my purse. I am not obligated to answer questions directly when the person asking does not have the right to know the answer to the question. That goes for anybody; not just panhandlers.Any type of deception is a lie. It is easier to say “I have money and choose not to give it to you”. Since you are under no obligation to give this theoretical person money, why is it complicated? If someone over the internet asked you for money, would you not say, “no”? What’s the difference? For some fear of how they react?
And how does telling someone that you have nothing to give them “deceive away from the truth”? It’s none of his business what you have in your purse or in your wallet.Simply saying “False” is an assertion fallacy. And your argument is also erroneous. The definition of deception isn’t “use of discreet language”. The definition of deception is a voluntary intent to deceive away from the truth.
Because when the beggar asks the question he is not asking whether the money you have is for him or not; he is asking you if you have money. Playing stupid does not escape the sight of God who can look into every heart and see whether it is deceptive or not.And how does telling someone that you have nothing to give them “deceive away from the truth”? It’s none of his business what you have in your purse or in your wallet.
Seriously? Does that not sound rude to you? If I’m encountering a potentially dangerous person, the last thing I’m going to is be rude to them. That’s just asking for trouble.It is a sin to ignore someone. The words “ignorance” and “ignore” are related. Secondly, a lie is not contingent on someone being a stranger. The person who fears God but has no fear of man, will simply say, “yes, I have money, but I am not going to give it to you.”
Not to quibble, but you can’t both accuse me of using the assertion fallacy and of presenting an actual argument that is erroneous at the same time.Simply saying “False” is an assertion fallacy. And your argument is also erroneous. The definition of deception isn’t “use of discreet language”. The definition of deception is a voluntary intent to deceive away from the truth.
Any person is potentially dangerous. As stated above, the greater danger is danger to one’s soul. Therefore, lying should be avoided even at the risk of one’s body. Even if it was certain that you were going to be attacked, it would be wrong to lie. The martyrs did not lie and bow to Ba’al. They accepted God even at the cost of their life. There is no way to justify a lie.Seriously? Does that not sound rude to you? If I’m encountering a potentially dangerous person, the last thing I’m going to is be rude to them. That’s just asking for trouble.
They did not lie and bow to Ba’al. But they did deceive to avoid persecution. Athanasius, was fleeing down the Nile when he was overtaken by some Roman soldiers. Not recognizing him, they asked if he’d seen Athanasius. His reply was some along the lines of “yes, he’s not far ahead, if you row fast enough you might just catch up.”Any person is potentially dangerous. As stated above, the greater danger is danger to one’s soul. Therefore, lying should be avoided even at the risk of one’s body. Even if it was certain that you were going to be attacked, it would be wrong to lie. The martyrs did not lie and bow to Ba’al. They accepted God even at the cost of their life. There is no way to justify a lie.
Are your eyes set on death? The bible narrates many things that it does not approve of. Athanasius is not justified in this action. Lot slept with his daughters. By your logic, incest is permissible. Faulty logic, there is no doubt. The issue is cut and dry when concerning lying as the commandment states, “thou shalt not lie”. Or, has your pride gotten the best of you that you must win this argument at the cost of your soul? If that is the case, I rather remain silent in order that you may live and so no one else is tempted by treachery. Take the humble road; give in. it is no use justifying petty crimes. Be a bigger man by allowing God to exalt you, for God humbles the proud even when they are right, but to those who are both prideful and wrong, He allows them to destroy themselves by their own vices.They did not lie and bow to Ba’al. But they did deceive to avoid persecution. Athanasius, was fleeing down the Nile when he was overtaken by some Roman soldiers. Not recognizing him, they asked if he’d seen Athanasius. His reply was some along the lines of “yes, he’s not far ahead, if you row fast enough you might just catch up.”
This issue is not as cut and dried as you make it appear. Your argument is along the same lines as an argument claiming that the fact that violence is bad means that violence may not be used for any reasons in any circumstances. This is not true, though it may be at times admirable to avoid violence even when it would be permitted. The same can be said of dishonest language.
Lets not degenerate into strawmen and insults, please. Lets recap what happened. You said “the martyrs did not lie and decieve…” to support your position that anything that will knowingly give a false perception is wrong by reference to the actions of the saints.Are your eyes set on death? The bible narrates many things that it does not approve of. Athanasius is not justified in this action. Lot slept with his daughters. By your logic, incest is permissible. Faulty logic, there is no doubt.
My pride is, at this time, fairly limited to making mildly snarky comments on the internet, as well as pointing out things like “a person criticizing another for ignoring the commands of God should realize that one should not pretend that he can see into the heart of men and know whether the criticizee, as it were, were acting off purposefully ignorant pride.”The issue is cut and dry when concerning lying as the commandment states, “thou shalt not lie”. Or, has your pride gotten the best of you that you must win this argument at the cost of your soul? If that is the case, I rather remain silent in order that you may live and so no one else is tempted by treachery. Take the humble road; give in. it is no use justifying petty crimes. Be a bigger man by allowing God to exalt you, for God humbles the proud even when they are right, but to those who are both prideful and wrong, He allows them to destroy themselves by their own vices.
Not a single word you’ve listened to, so Pharoah’s heart was hardened. I will answer for those who look on, but this fool’s errand, I won’t continue.Lets not degenerate into strawmen and insults, please. Lets recap what happened. You said “the martyrs did not lie and decieve…” to support your position that anything that will knowingly give a false perception is wrong by reference to the actions of the saints.
I then presented an example of a saint who does not fit your mold, thus showing that the argument that we should not (or know we should not) because they did not fails on false premise. That is, the saints did. This counter-argument is not in principal irrefutable, you simply have to show that this is an example of a saint’s sin.
If you want to say that St. Athanasius sinned in his deception, that’s fine. Even saints sin, it is true, and not all their actions should be imitated (as much as I would like to punch heretics in the face at times, for example, St. Nicholas’s example probably shouldn’t be followed in that respect).
But since the argument that you made rests on the fact that the lives of the saints are generally (if not completely) imitable, I think it rests on you to show with reason (beyond assertion) that this action was not.
My pride is, at this time, fairly limited to making mildly snarky comments on the internet, as well as pointing out things like “a person criticizing another for ignoring the commands of God should realize that one should not pretend that he can see into the heart of men and know whether the criticizee, as it were, were acting off purposefully ignorant pride.”
I will represent my analogy to you and see if you would care to respond to it in a reasoned manner this time:
Violence against fellow humans is bad. It acts in contrary to the image of God in which we are created, and hence against God. It is even prohibited in the case of “murder”. Yet it is permissible in defense of ones own life and the lives and well-being of others, laudable in some cases, and required in others.
I doubt that you dispute this. Why then do you deny that dishonesty may have a similar position? And please note that I am not interested in what you think of my motivations, whether or not I’m headed to hell, or my logical prowess, but only in your response to this question.
True, beggars often use the opening phrase “do you have money”, instead of “can I have money”. But what are their intentions? Unless they’re completely crazy, they’re not documenting the wealth of random passerby for their own amusement. They ask you if you have money, under the assumption that if the answer is yes, then they can have some. Simple communication skills and common sense tells you that. Saying “I have no money to give you,” conveys everything you need to, and you don’t look like an arrogant ***.Because when the beggar asks the question he is not asking whether the money you have is for him or not; he is asking you if you have money. Playing stupid does not escape the sight of God who can look into every heart and see whether it is deceptive or not.
Again, the appeal to fear of bodily harm. Something the man of faith is beyond. Your speech of this sort falls on deaf ears for true believers- those ready to give up their life on a word. If your goal is to convert others, then how wrongly you have misjudged. It’s God that converts the heart, not you- can’t even convert yourself- not without a grace- a gift from above. You seem to care more about appearances than what actually is- but people aren’t that stupid- much less do beggars care about appearances- they live and breathe reality. Jesus will no doubt say to you, “I was hungry and you did not give me to eat” and you will say “lord when did I see you hungry?” I’d hope you know the rest…try using your excuses on Him** All i can do is quote.I personally see nothing at all wrong with saying “I have nothing to give you.” It states as much truth as there needs to be, and it gets the point across. Saying “yes, I have money but not for you” is downright rude, completely unnecessary, and even suicidal in some areas.
If the issue of self preservation doesn’t make you happy, then what about turning people away from God? If they see that this is how good Christians think they should act; flaunt their money around without giving you any, simply to prove some sort of strange honesty principle to themselves; they would probably want little to do with Christianity.
True, beggars often use the opening phrase “do you have money”, instead of “can I have money”. But what are their intentions? Unless they’re completely crazy, they’re not documenting the wealth of random passerby for their own amusement. They ask you if you have money, under the assumption that if the answer is yes, then they can have some. Simple communication skills and common sense tells you that. Saying “I have no money to give you,” conveys everything you need to, and you don’t look like an arrogant ***.
Seriously, the beggar has no right to know how much money I am carrying. It’s none of his business at all.
I firmly tell them no then walk away. I give my money to homeless shelters. Personal experience of being homeless has helped me understand why you shouldn’t directly give them money.What if you’re at a parking lot and someone’s begging you for money (panhandling). It’s pretty obvious they’re making up sob stories and most likely gonna use that money for drugs or whatever. So you told them you don’t have any, even though you do. Is that still a sin?
I agree with this for sure. I’ve lived in a couple cities–right in the center. Nashville and Philadelphia to be specific. I’d give money on a whim or hold it back- it depended on my mood. Sometimes I’d by them food, but McDonalds served them for free, so there was no need for that. I learned a few lessons quick, some who I turned down cursed me, but it was almost my hand that knocked them out. I didn’t sin, I resisted, but the temptation was there for sure. I see no reason to fear a human just like me- I’d let them kill me first. But it never comes to that…a murderer or a robber is set out from the beginning; there’s no escaping him. Either way, it’s not the victim’s fault. this life is only passing…we can’t forget Christ’s wordsI firmly tell them no then walk away. I give my money to homeless shelters. Personal experience of being homeless has helped me understand why you shouldn’t directly give them money.
Somehow, I doubt Jesus meant for you to be rude to beggars for no apparent reason.Again, the appeal to fear of bodily harm. Something the man of faith is beyond. Your speech of this sort falls on deaf ears for true believers- those ready to give up their life on a word.
Your little self righteous speech is just adorable, but we’re talking about how to refuse giving beggars money, about how we should always give them money.If your goal is to convert others, then how wrongly you have misjudged. It’s God that converts the heart, not you- can’t even convert yourself- not without a grace- a gift from above. You seem to care more about appearances than what actually is- but people aren’t that stupid- much less do beggars care about appearances- they live and breathe reality. Jesus will no doubt say to you, “I was hungry and you did not give me to eat” and you will say “lord when did I see you hungry?” I’d hope you know the rest…try using your excuses on Him** All i can do is quote.
Telling the truth is not rude. A gift is a gift, nothing is owed them but the truth, charity does the rest. The Nazi’s would listen to your lie, come in your house to check, and then kill you along with the Jews. You’d die in your sin, as Jesus says those who try to save their lives will lose it. Hopefully, you’ll change soon. Life is short. God alone is worthy of adoration, so you won’t win me with those words. The Imitation of Christ tells us not to judge others, therefore a priest is destined to hear what you just said to me in the confession booth. But that is between you and God, as for me your sin is already forgiven. I rather give money to a beggar, than my time to a fool.Somehow, I doubt Jesus meant for you to be rude to beggars for no apparent reason.
And you still haven’t said as to why saying “I have no money for you” isn’t a decent omission. I suppose you would’ve had people back in WWII era telling Nazis where all the Jews were hiding.
Your little self righteous speech is just adorable, but we’re talking about how to refuse giving beggars money, about how we should always give them money.