Lying

[dskysmine]

Lying is always a sin… right?

What if it is in the context of a game?

Is the game “two truths one lie” sinful?

Why? Or why not?

 

[srferdave]

IMO it is not a sin. You are playing a game and everyone should be aware that part of the game is to lie. I think a lie is sinful when the truth is expected.

 

[FightingFat]

I had a discussion with a moral theologian about this that revolved around an Anne Frank type scenario. Is it a sin to lie to the Nazi’s who ask you if you are hiding Jews in your house?

No, it’s not, because the intention of the Nazi is known to you and its known to be murder. This means that the Nazi has no right to the truth and you are acting for the moral good.

Easy way to work this is to remember what the Church teaches about the causes of morality:

CCC1750 The morality of human acts depends on:

• the object chosen;
• the end in view or the intention;
• the circumstances of the action

 

[thistle]

Lying is always a sin… right?

What if it is in the context of a game?

Is the game “two truths one lie” sinful?

Why? Or why not?

There are several threads currently running about lying.

 

[PerfectTiming]

IMO, that’s not really a sin because there’s no malicious intent. It’s a game and it’s harmless.

 

[dskysmine]

There are several threads currently running about lying.

I’m not getting any answers in the other threads…

@Everyone else. If the intent is to deceive someone how is it different than me lying about my weight, or lying about anything else to get something I want?

 

[FightingFat]

I’m not getting any answers in the other threads…

@Everyone else. If the intent is to deceive someone how is it different than me lying about my weight, or lying about anything else to get something I want?

What is your intention? Is it to deceive, or is it to save the lives of the Jews hiding in your cupboard?



So for example, if you are playing a game, your intention is to partake of the game and to enjoy it.

 

[dskysmine]

What is your intention? Is it to deceive, or is it to save the lives of the Jews hiding in your cupboard?



So for example, if you are playing a game, your intention is to partake of the game and to enjoy it.

I actually added more examples besides the game example in the other thread and still no one answered…

I mentioned also:
"What about lying on a test? A teacher can make true and false statements in a test so that we correct the false ones. Is that sinful?

What about using metaphors and not being consistent, especially in the artistic world. We can many times express things that are not coherent with reality. Is that sinful?

Do you lie when you are purposely not exact like for example telling the time to someone? "

In the game your enjoyment is over deceiving other people because whoever deceives better can get more “truths” out of the other person.

 

[FightingFat]

"What about lying on a test? A teacher can make true and false statements in a test so that we correct the false ones. Is that sinful?

No. The teacher’s intention is to educate you.

What about using metaphors and not being consistent, especially in the artistic world. We can many times express things that are not coherent with reality. Is that sinful?

What is your intention? Is it to deceive, or better explain the subject by the use of a metaphor?

Do you lie when you are purposely not exact like for example telling the time to someone? "

No, it is not your intention to deceive, you are answering to the best of your knowledge and your intention is to be helpful. If you knew it was 3pm and told someone it was 2pm instead, that’s telling a lie in order to deceive someone.

In the game your enjoyment is over deceiving other people because whoever deceives better can get more “truths” out of the other person.

Yes but all in the context of a game.

 

[srferdave]

What FightingFat said…

 

[FightingFat]

What FightingFat said…

:hug3:

 

[dskysmine]

Thanks for “biting” =)

No. The teacher’s intention is to educate you.

Couldn’t that be the same excuse from a “lying” advertisement?

What is your intention? Is it to deceive, or better explain the subject by the use of a metaphor?

Usually a metaphor is used to embelish things. To cover simple realistic truths with similar but more exotic things, so in part it is deceiving.

No, it is not your intention to deceive, you are answering to the best of your knowledge and your intention is to be helpful. If you knew it was 3pm and told someone it was 2pm instead, that’s telling a lie in order to deceive someone.

How about when I say an approximate time. Last time I checked the time it was 15h32 but if I tell you that time you wouldn’t know the exact time.

Yes but all in the context of a game.

“The game of life” =D
hehehe

 

[FightingFat]

Couldn’t that be the same excuse from a “lying” advertisement?

Yup, but what is important is the intention, and that’s not always something you can second guess. Anyway, you say it yourself, it’s an “excuse from a “lying” advertisement”, so you’re saying that stating they mislead in an attempt to educate would be an excuse, and not the real intention.

Usually a metaphor is used to embelish things. To cover simple realistic truths with similar but more exotic things, so in part it is deceiving.

No it’s not, it can be a fancy way of saying something, or a simplification of an idea- “Ogres are like onions” (Shrek)

How about when I say an approximate time. Last time I checked the time it was 15h32 but if I tell you that time you wouldn’t know the exact time.

What is your intention? Is it to tell me the approximate time, or is it to mislead me as to what the actual time is?

 

[dskysmine]

Yup, but what is important is the intention, and that’s not always something you can second guess. Anyway, you say it yourself, it’s an “excuse from a “lying” advertisement”, so you’re saying that stating they mislead in an attempt to educate would be an excuse, and not the real intention.

So lying is not the “sin” only the why?

No it’s not, it can be a fancy way of saying something, or a simplification of an idea- “Ogres are like onions” (Shrek)

That’s not a metaphor. A metaphor is something like:
“As I watched the world below me houses were squares and rivers were ribbons”.

What is your intention? Is it to tell me the approximate time, or is it to mislead me as to what the actual time is?

If you’re running late I’ll lie to make you hurry

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So far this is about the friendliest thread I’ve seen on this topic.

I don’t think lying – that is decieving in any way regardless of intent – is always a sin, or if the theologians say that it s, then I don’t think that just because technically on the books it is a “sin,” that God is guaranteed to grieve over it.

People much more qualified than me can argue about whether “sin” can involve certain acts regardless of intent, or whether intent is part of the formula for an act to be “sinful.”

Either way, I do not believe that any time I mislead somebody for any reason, that I’ve automatically made God sad. Call it a sin if you want, but the question to me is, is God happy that I did it, and if He isn’t, can he help me trust and respond to the Holy Spirit better so that it is less likely to happen again?

Whether the actual word “sin” applies in all cases, to me, is an issue of rhetoric and definition.

Alan

 

[davidv]

So lying is not the “sin” only the why?

That’s not a metaphor. A metaphor is something like:
“As I watched the world below me houses were squares and rivers were ribbons”.

If you’re running late I’ll lie to make you hurry

I believe one problem is that there is a failure in discriminating between falsehoods that are lies and ones that are not. Just like some killings are murder and others are not.

In both cases it is accurate to state the lying and murder are always wrong as long as each term is properly understood.

 

[FightingFat]

So lying is not the “sin” only the why?

Lying is a sin, lying is intending to deceive someone.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lying is a sin, lying is intending to deceive someone.

Again, is the intent to deceive from selfish or noble motives? Does that matter in determining whether it is a “sin,” or even a “lie,” for that matter?

Like another poster said, I think we have to be extremely careful that we agree on the meanings of these terms, and what range of contexts they apply. Especially when it comes to the nearly-always problematic words “always” or “never,” we must be extremely careful or we may have bitter disagreement when the essence of what we believe is actually in harmony with theirs.

Alan

 

[FightingFat]

Again, is the intent to deceive from selfish or noble motives? Does that matter in determining whether it is a “sin,” or even a “lie,” for that matter?

Like another poster said, I think we have to be extremely careful that we agree on the meanings of these terms, and what range of contexts they apply. Especially when it comes to the nearly-always problematic words “always” or “never,” we must be extremely careful or we may have bitter disagreement when the essence of what we believe is actually in harmony with theirs.

Alan

It’s a good point well made Alan. Let me ask you this, is stealing a sin?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It’s a good point well made Alan. Let me ask you this, is stealing a sin?

By definition, I don’t care to guess as others here are experts in the “legalistic” aspects of this. Since they know the terminology I decline offering a definition I make up.

I can tell you my personal feelings, though. I think that if I steal the answers to an exam so that I may appear more competent than I really am, that is not only a sin, that would get us a scolding from somebody – God, other people, our conscience, etc. :tsktsk:

If Father Emil J. Kapaun, Servant of God, soldier, priest, and martyr, steals and lies to get food for his starving fellow POW’s, then we submit him to the Vatican for sainthood.

So, if the Church is pleased with what Kapaun did for his fellow prisoners, then the Church must not be too concerned that Kapaun is going to lose his immortal soul for lying and stealing to get that done.

IMO, this is relativism at its best. It isn’t about being disobedient to the Church or to God, to me it’s about allowing your human heart to help with the decision making process, when it is too complicated to get out the rule book every time you need to make a decision. I don’t think the Bible was intended to be a cookbook of remedies for all occasions, I think it’s a training manual for the mind and heart. Kind of like a mental/emotional/spiritual gymnasium and university. We graduate, taking our lessons to the streets and do what we know is right. :knight2:

Peace, :heaven:
Alan