Maccabees and Daniel

[phummel]

Hello,

Laziness abounds here. I thought I read something in a post where someone wrote that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled and revealed in Maccabees. Can someone elaborate or am I way off base here?
You are probably familiar with the interpretations of Daniel-Revelation that many SDAs hold. Personally, I think it’s difficult to try to prophetically read God’s timeline and plan for the future.

blessings,
paul

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hello,

Laziness abounds here. I thought I read something in a post where someone wrote that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled and revealed in Maccabees. Can someone elaborate or am I way off base here?
You are probably familiar with the interpretations of Daniel-Revelation that many SDAs hold. Personally, I think it’s difficult to try to prophetically read God’s timeline and plan for the future.

blessings,
paul

I’m not familiar with the assertion that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled in the Maccabean period, but I think the “Awful Horror” was at least partly fulfilled. I used to be Protestant, but even then I found some of the fundamentalist assertions about “last days” stuff a bit weird. I have no doubt that enormous trouble is coming, but at the same time I think some of the stuff peddled in some circles is rubbish, which as far as I’m concerned includes the so-called “Rapture”.

But then fads last for about five years as a rule, so I suppose we’ll see the recent emphasis on the “Rapture” fade away in the not too distant future.

This is a quote from Maccabees regarding the “Awful Horror” mentioned in Daniel which was set up by King Antiochus, probably the Jews’ most bitter and cruel enemy during the Maccabean period.

“… The Awful Horror on the altar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea.55 Pagan sacrifices were offered in front of houses and in the streets.56 Any books of the Law which were found were torn up and burned,57 and anyone who was caught with a copy of the sacred books or who obeyed the Law was put to death by order of the king.58 Month after month these wicked people used their power against the Israelites caught in the towns.”

However in Matthew Christ also mentioned the “Awful Horror” predicted by Daniel. Reading between the lines, I assume He was talking about the Roman Eagle standard, which presumable was set up during the sack of Jerusalem in 70AD. Tradition has it that Christians fled when they saw it as they knew what was coming.

My final comment is that though I accept the Maccabean and other Deutero-Canonical books as Scriptural on the Church’s authority, I don’t get quite the same feeling of “spirituality” as I do when I read the usual Scriptures. The Maccabean books are useful history, and Josephus parallels them in his history of the Jews. They’re also very violent, and rather depressing.

 

[phummel]

Thank you Bob! That’s a start for me.

 

[benidict]

Hello,

Laziness abounds here. I thought I read something in a post where someone wrote that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled and revealed in Maccabees. Can someone elaborate or am I way off base here?
You are probably familiar with the interpretations of Daniel-Revelation that many SDAs hold. Personally, I think it’s difficult to try to prophetically read God’s timeline and plan for the future.

blessings,
paul

hi phummel. that would be me, whos post you read. do not have time now, but asap i will give you a side by side comparison with daniels prophecies and the reign of antiochus. the reign of antiocus is found in the first book of machabees. he did everything daniel said he would do. setting up and aboination that caused desolation, he forbade the daily sacrafice, he profaned the sabbath, also forbade the festival days to be celebrated. these are just a few things he did. will go thru it with a comparison from daniel about all he did with what was prophecied. glad you started this thread. do not know if you have read the book of machabees or not. should be an interesting discussion. not going to try to convince you one way or the other. your beliefs and that of sda are your own. but from the beginning of his reign, to the end. its very clear who daniel was talking about. God bless you and yours.

 

[benidict]

Hello,

Laziness abounds here. I thought I read something in a post where someone wrote that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled and revealed in Maccabees. Can someone elaborate or am I way off base here?
You are probably familiar with the interpretations of Daniel-Revelation that many SDAs hold. Personally, I think it’s difficult to try to prophetically read God’s timeline and plan for the future.

blessings,
paul

hi phummel. im back. instead of doing a verse by verse comparison for you, i think it would be better if you actually would be able to read from people who are much more qualified on this subject than myself. nobody directed me to these. just reading machabees, i could see the comparison. i would say google antiochus epiphanus antichrist. then when the screen pops up, daniel 8- antiochus and anti-christ. they agree that antiochus fufilled daniels prophecy about this. and also pointed to a future ruler like this. this would answere your questions much better than i could. but no it was not intellectual laziness on my part. apparently there are others who see the same thing, who are much more educated and studied up on the subject than myself. i think you may find it an interesting read. especially since what ive seen on amazing facts completely skips over antiochus when attempting to prove their end times views. they talk about alexander the persians etc. but for some reason skip this one man who perfectly fufilled the vision. thx for your time. i hope you enjoy the reading. get back to me and let me know what you think. God bless you and yours

 

[phummel]

hi phummel. im back. instead of doing a verse by verse comparison for you, i think it would be better if you actually would be able to read from people who are much more qualified on this subject than myself. nobody directed me to these. just reading machabees, i could see the comparison. i would say google antiochus epiphanus antichrist. then when the screen pops up, daniel 8- antiochus and anti-christ. they agree that antiochus fufilled daniels prophecy about this. and also pointed to a future ruler like this. this would answere your questions much better than i could. but no it was not intellectual laziness on my part. apparently there are others who see the same thing, who are much more educated and studied up on the subject than myself. i think you may find it an interesting read. especially since what ive seen on amazing facts completely skips over antiochus when attempting to prove their end times views. they talk about alexander the persians etc. but for some reason skip this one man who perfectly fufilled the vision. thx for your time. i hope you enjoy the reading. get back to me and let me know what you think. God bless you and yours

Perfect! I have borrrowed a New Jersusalem Bible and will do some homework.
Thank you for your thoughtful response and references.

Btw, my reference to “laziness” was directed at myself, not at you. I was looking for someone to get my started. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

blessings,
paul

 

[benidict]

Perfect! I have borrrowed a New Jersusalem Bible and will do some homework.
Thank you for your thoughtful response and references.

Btw, my reference to “laziness” was directed at myself, not at you. I was looking for someone to get my started. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

blessings,
paul

hi phummel, no offence taken. and no, its not laziness on you or any other persons part. as a former protestant, no effort was really made to make us aware of these books, just a little jot in our christian history classes. no offence taken. i am however aware how some people do throw things out there with no reference or source to back them up. that my friend would be lazy. have not found that with you. enjoy the read. if anything it will add more history that otherwise would lay undiscovered. i also enjoy reading josephus and other very old historians. unlike the previous poster, i dont worry wether or not i get a spiritual feeling by reading something. 1rst and 2nd chronicles comes to mind. lol! i think you and he know what i mean. some of those writings are pretty dry if not read in the light of 1rst and 2nd kings. God bless you and yours. and again. enjoy the book of machabees,its fascinating.

 

[benidict]

I’m not familiar with the assertion that many of the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled in the Maccabean period, but I think the “Awful Horror” was at least partly fulfilled. I used to be Protestant, but even then I found some of the fundamentalist assertions about “last days” stuff a bit weird. I have no doubt that enormous trouble is coming, but at the same time I think some of the stuff peddled in some circles is rubbish, which as far as I’m concerned includes the so-called “Rapture”.

But then fads last for about five years as a rule, so I suppose we’ll see the recent emphasis on the “Rapture” fade away in the not too distant future.

This is a quote from Maccabees regarding the “Awful Horror” mentioned in Daniel which was set up by King Antiochus, probably the Jews’ most bitter and cruel enemy during the Maccabean period.

“… The Awful Horror on the altar of the Temple, and pagan altars were built in the towns throughout Judea.55 Pagan sacrifices were offered in front of houses and in the streets.56 Any books of the Law which were found were torn up and burned,57 and anyone who was caught with a copy of the sacred books or who obeyed the Law was put to death by order of the king.58 Month after month these wicked people used their power against the Israelites caught in the towns.”

However in Matthew Christ also mentioned the “Awful Horror” predicted by Daniel. Reading between the lines, I assume He was talking about the Roman Eagle standard, which presumable was set up during the sack of Jerusalem in 70AD. Tradition has it that Christians fled when they saw it as they knew what was coming.

My final comment is that though I accept the Maccabean and other Deutero-Canonical books as Scriptural on the Church’s authority, I don’t get quite the same feeling of “spirituality” as I do when I read the usual Scriptures. The Maccabean books are useful history, and Josephus parallels them in his history of the Jews. They’re also very violent, and rather depressing.

hi bob. how ya doin brother. just addressed this with phummel. do you mean to tell me you get the same feeling of spirituality when reading say. chronicles? lol! i try but its hard. understand your meaning. im just being silly. i dont know about you, but when i read the book of wisdom, especially the parts that portray the passion of our Lord. i do get a very strong sense of spirituality. appreciate your early response to phummel. i did not have all my ducks in a row at that time. and needed to double check my resources. thank you. i think between the two of us, at the very least he should have some really great reading material. ive read alot of sda literature in my time as well. God bless you brother. my prayers are with you and yours.

 

[Eucharisted]

Biblical prophecies have different meanings, yet the whole Scriptures points to Jesus Christ. Hence, the awful horror is a reference to what happened during Maccabee’s time and during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and refers again to the coming of the antichrist. The suffering servant in Isaiah is a reference to Israel and to Jesus and to the Church.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

hi bob. how ya doin brother. just addressed this with phummel. do you mean to tell me you get the same feeling of spirituality when reading say. chronicles? lol! i try but its hard. understand your meaning. im just being silly. i dont know about you, but when i read the book of wisdom, especially the parts that portray the passion of our Lord. i do get a very strong sense of spirituality. appreciate your early response to phummel. i did not have all my ducks in a row at that time. and needed to double check my resources. thank you. i think between the two of us, at the very least he should have some really great reading material. ive read alot of sda literature in my time as well. God bless you brother. my prayers are with you and yours.

I think you’re better equipped to deal with the question than I am. I never took much interest in trying to interpret Daniel’s prophecies even in my Protestant days. And it was my vague memory of reading about the “Awful Horror” in Maccabees which prompted my response (and to my gentile mind probably ti wouldn’t have seemed such a big deal if I saw it. But then if I saw a church where someone had desecrated the cross for example, I’d no doubt be offended).

I had a quick look at the passages in Daniel where these angelic prophecies take place.

To me, Verse 11:3, the “warrior king” would be Alexander the Macedonian.

His kingdom was divided into four. I think the next few verses refer to competition between the various rulers of these four segments, one of whom would be Ptolemy, who I recently found out is supposed to have strode into the “Holy of Holies” out of curiousity, and found … absolutely “Nothing” (which is what the mystics also find, but in a different sense).

The worst king was Anitochus, whom I think is described in 11:20-39, with a bit of overlap with possibly the Romans in the last part of Chapter 11. Verse 11:31 refers to the “abomination that makes desolate”, which can probably be translated as “the Awful Horror”.

In other words, Daniel’s prophecies seem to be just about all over bar the shouting by the time of Christ. The period of Jewish history described by the Maccabee’s books was very violent. I’m not surprised the Jews were expecting a Messiah. They must have wondered how much more they were expected to endure.

But unfortunately some fundamentalists today are still trying to make them fit into their own version of end times theology.

 

[benidict]

I think you’re better equipped to deal with the question than I am. I never took much interest in trying to interpret Daniel’s prophecies even in my Protestant days. And it was my vague memory of reading about the “Awful Horror” in Maccabees which prompted my response (and to my gentile mind probably ti wouldn’t have seemed such a big deal if I saw it. But then if I saw a church where someone had desecrated the cross for example, I’d no doubt be offended).

I had a quick look at the passages in Daniel where these angelic prophecies take place.

To me, Verse 11:3, the “warrior king” would be Alexander the Macedonian.

His kingdom was divided into four. I think the next few verses refer to competition between the various rulers of these four segments, one of whom would be Ptolemy, who I recently found out is supposed to have strode into the “Holy of Holies” out of curiousity, and found … absolutely “Nothing” (which is what the mystics also find, but in a different sense).

The worst king was Anitochus, whom I think is described in 11:20-39, with a bit of overlap with possibly the Romans in the last part of Chapter 11. Verse 11:31 refers to the “abomination that makes desolate”, which can probably be translated as “the Awful Horror”.

In other words, Daniel’s prophecies seem to be just about all over bar the shouting by the time of Christ. The period of Jewish history described by the Maccabee’s books was very violent. I’m not surprised the Jews were expecting a Messiah. They must have wondered how much more they were expected to endure.

But unfortunately some fundamentalists today are still trying to make them fit into their own version of end times theology.

hi bob. yeah, i hear ya. i was taught the premillinialist view point and fell for it hook line and sinker. its so easy to get wrapped up in prophecy, that we forget the most important things. Jesus, His sacrifice on the cross. faith,hope,love. ive come to learn thru my dear brothers and sisters in the Church, that for every verse of prophecy i read, i should read at least four, dealing with other subjects, such as living in Christ. learning to serve, loving my neighbor. confessing sin. meeting with the saints. etc. so much more to the bible than prophecy, and i will leave its interpretation to the magestirium. its so easy to get confused, when we read it. not as into it in the last few years. and actually,its a topic i tend to shy away from with people. not out of any fears of debate or anything. but there is so much more than this. love, service, worship, the mass, eucharistic adoration. etc. have seen friendships damaged when two people disagree on such passages. so if it doesnt lead to unity, i do tend to shy away. God bless you and yours brother. in my prayers.

 

[benidict]

Biblical prophecies have different meanings, yet the whole Scriptures points to Jesus Christ. Hence, the awful horror is a reference to what happened during Maccabee’s time and during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and refers again to the coming of the antichrist. The suffering servant in Isaiah is a reference to Israel and to Jesus and to the Church.

 

[phummel]

…its so easy to get wrapped up in prophecy, that we forget the most important things. Jesus, His sacrifice on the cross. faith,hope,love. ive come to learn thru my dear brothers and sisters in the Church, that for every verse of prophecy i read, i should read at least four, dealing with other subjects, such as living in Christ. learning to serve, loving my neighbor. confessing sin.
…
its a topic i tend to shy away from with people. not out of any fears of debate or anything. but there is so much more than this. love, service, worship, … so if it doesnt lead to unity, i do tend to shy away.

Amen benidict, this is beautiful!

 

[benidict]

Amen benidict, this is beautiful!

hi phummel, thank you. but what will be more beautiful, is when we all walk the street of gold together. in perfect communion with eachother and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. that is the day i really look forward to. and to think, we will have all eternity to serve perfectly. love perfectly. and walk perfectly with our God. may He bless you and yours my friend.

 

[benidict]

Biblical prophecies have different meanings, yet the whole Scriptures points to Jesus Christ. Hence, the awful horror is a reference to what happened during Maccabee’s time and during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and refers again to the coming of the antichrist. The suffering servant in Isaiah is a reference to Israel and to Jesus and to the Church.

hi eucaristed. do you believe that the antichrist spoken of in the new testament was nero? it seems very likely. would very much appreciate your insites. thank you and God bless.

 

[Eucharisted]

hi eucaristed. do you believe that the antichrist spoken of in the new testament was nero? it seems very likely. would very much appreciate your insites. thank you and God bless.

Prophecies have multiple meanings, which is why no one can take one prophecy and claim it refers singularly to the end of the world. The antichrist, who is different from the antichrists (the ancient term for those who deny Jesus Christ), is the man of perdition, who shall cause a great persecution of the Church just as Jesus was persecuted, the Church’s final trial, her crucifixion with the Lord, through which God will finally purify the Church and will bring her into glory. Emperor Nero is the proto-antichrist, in the same sense that Genesis 3:15 is the proto-evangelium, and every madman who causes great harm to the Church and all mankind is a type of antichrist. They foreshadow the antichrist, they remind man of the wicked one to come, and their wickedness and cleverness is but a shadow compared to the wickedness and cleverness of the coming man of destruction. Interestingly enough, the apostle Judas is a type of antichrist - Christ even calls him a son of destruction, which is a play-on-words for someone who is doomed to Hell and for someone who works as Satan’s agent - though this should not cause one to believe the antichrist will come from within the Church, for we don’t know if he will come from within or without Christ’s flock. Some can speculate, yes, but that is really all. A revelation might come from God concerning it, but no private revelation is mandatory for belief.

 

[benidict]

Prophecies have multiple meanings, which is why no one can take one prophecy and claim it refers singularly to the end of the world. The antichrist, who is different from the antichrists (the ancient term for those who deny Jesus Christ), is the man of perdition, who shall cause a great persecution of the Church just as Jesus was persecuted, the Church’s final trial, her crucifixion with the Lord, through which God will finally purify the Church and will bring her into glory. Emperor Nero is the proto-antichrist, in the same sense that Genesis 3:15 is the proto-evangelium, and every madman who causes great harm to the Church and all mankind is a type of antichrist. They foreshadow the antichrist, they remind man of the wicked one to come, and their wickedness and cleverness is but a shadow compared to the wickedness and cleverness of the coming man of destruction. Interestingly enough, the apostle Judas is a type of antichrist - Christ even calls him a son of destruction, which is a play-on-words for someone who is doomed to Hell and for someone who works as Satan’s agent - though this should not cause one to believe the antichrist will come from within the Church, for we don’t know if he will come from within or without Christ’s flock. Some can speculate, yes, but that is really all. A revelation might come from God concerning it, but no private revelation is mandatory for belief.

hi eucaristed. thank you for your response. am aware of the final trial the Church will have to go thru. but i dont pretend to know what that all entails. your answere looks like the best. and i agree with you, we dont know if he will come thru the Church or not. i think the best we can do is trust in the promise of Christ, that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. and that my friend is enough for me. again appreciate your insights, they are very benificial to all. God bless you and yours.

 

[Eucharisted]

hi eucaristed. thank you for your response. am aware of the final trial the Church will have to go thru. but i dont pretend to know what that all entails. your answere looks like the best. and i agree with you, we dont know if he will come thru the Church or not. i think the best we can do is trust in the promise of Christ, that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. and that my friend is enough for me. again appreciate your insights, they are very benificial to all. God bless you and yours.

Amen!